<p>I Think you may be on to something
I’m going to bed.</p>
<p>The real irony is that skin color is so meaningless. No one is concerned about a person’s eye or hair color, even though the variations we see in eye, hair, and skin color all result from the same thing – man’s adaptation to environment. We would never allow debates about eye color to dominate our society, but we allow skin color to do so. Strange.</p>
<p>If we were all the same color, I wonder what we would argue about? We’d find something, that’s for sure.</p>
<p>Hi, came back to check on this thread.
Thank you, Nil, for bringing some facts and evidence to this deluded conversation.</p>
<p>Paintmuffin, very few people on this thread make any actual sense. I’ve been asking Mattttt to tell to me where he gets his information and he’s not willing to disclose. The reason why is because he has no actual proof or evidence for his opinions.</p>
<p>Matttt, where do you get your inaccurate information?</p>
<p>“susan, i think the whole thing with black students feeling out of place in honors classrooms is ridiculous. If your gonna complain about that, how about white basketball players feeling out of place in the nba, or Asians feeling out of place in something they are not very involved in?”</p>
<p>Matt, see, a comment like this shows that you essentially know nothing about the history and current status of racial minorities in the United States. Do me a favor and tell me where you get your information. You still haven’t answered this question, which makes me believe that you aren’t actually out for any “real” answers.</p>
<p>I’m just wondering if Mattttttt has told his Black friend how he feels and what he is thinking?</p>
<p>“I’m just wondering if Mattttttt has told his Black friend how he feels and what he is thinking?”</p>
<p>In my opinion, I don’t think that he has, which would be another example of underrepresented minorities having different experiences from their white peers, i.e. questioning of skill and aptitude due to race. But, according to Matt, his “one black friend” has the same experiences as he.</p>
<p>sdma, how am I questioning his skill or aptitude? I am asking how is it fair that he is getting money just because he is black? Our grades are not different, but he gets diversity scholarships. Nice reading comprehension.</p>
<p>Trust me, with all that I have achieved in my life, I think it’s safe to say that reading comprehension is the least of my problems. Regardless, you still haven’t answered my question: where did you get your information? This answer is still wanting.</p>
<p>What information do you mean?</p>
<p>What information am I talking about? How about providing some support for your countless, misguided statements. You asked everyone else to give you evidence, it was given, but you provided nothing in return. Your sources are still wanting.</p>
<p>do not fear sdma, he acuses everyone of fail readng comprehension.</p>
<p>Oh, goodness.</p>
<p>Clearly, Mattttttttt doesn’t want to discuss–much less, to consider seriously a position that’s different from his own. Clearly, he wants to gripe about the difficult lot of the oppressed majority, and have other disgruntled white guys agree with him.</p>
<p>What if we all just resolved to let this thread die out?</p>
<p>I have a request for those who support racial preferences: play Devil’s Advocate and argue why there shouldn’t be racial preferences. I’ve found that many supporters really have no idea as to what opponents of racial preferences are actually arguing, but I’d love to be proven wrong.</p>
<p>There are opponents of racial preferences who have well-reasoned arguments. There are also opponents of racial preferences who just don’t think that black guy over there deserves to be successful. I understand why you don’t much like the latter group, but they do exist.</p>
<p>I read a story just recently–perhaps it was here on CC–about a teacher who gave six high school students the task of preparing for a debate. Three of the students were supposed to argue for some position the teacher assigned to them, and the other three were supposed to argue against it. Well, wouldn’t you know that when the day of the debate came, the teacher really wanted each group of three students to argue for the OPPOSITE position from what he had said earlier. Only one of the six students (who apparently gave that teacher more credit for being tricky than any of his classmates) had researched the opposite position, so only that student looked at all prepared during the debate. This is always good practice. Do your best to wrap your mind around the point of view of people who disagree with you, by pretending that you are part of a team arguing for that point of view. (Many high school debaters these days have to switch positions at each round in a tournament, which is why high school debate can be phenomenally good preparation for challenging academic study in college.) That’s the best purpose of a contentious thread like this on CC: giving each of us a chance to think about what the other person is writing, and to practice disagreeing, if we wish to disagree, without being personal or putting people down.</p>
<p>I acknowledge that some opponents may indeed base their opposition on prejudice against “underrepresented” minorities, but amarkov, can you give an example of a well-reasoned argument in opposition to racial preferences? Of course I must be prepared to do what I ask of others. To me, there are essentially two broad argument paths in favor of racial preferences: social justice and “diversity.”</p>
<p>The social justice argument holds that there is a duty on the part of all Americans to help the historically oppressed and discriminated, even those Americans who are immigrants or the children of immigrants and who thus had absolutely no part in the historical oppression. That is, because some racial classifications were historically disadvantaged due to institutionalized racism, preferential treatment must be accorded to the descendants of the disadvantaged to compensate for the injustice. The social justice argument, properly employed, can paint a powerful mental image of oppression and thus produce the desired effects of guilt.</p>
<p>The “diversity” argument holds that we can learn from people who different than we are in terms of racial classification, culture, upbringing, geography, and so forth. In particular, it is beneficial to have at least some students from all backgrounds, since all students benefit, not just the supposed beneficiaries of the preference policies.</p>
<p>The problem with the social justice argument is that it inevitably descends into a perverse infinite argument of “my ancestors were oppressed more than yours!” and “no, MY ancestors were oppressed more than yours!” Moreover, there is undoubtedly a sense of injustice in forcing people who did not participate in the historical injustices to bear burdens for what their predecessors may or may not have done. That’s more or less why the Supreme Court has never commanded majority support for the argument.</p>
<p>The problem with the “diversity” argument is that while it ostensibly promotes all kinds of difference, the only difference that actually matters is the first–racial classification. The argument is just a cover for supporting racial preferences by throwing the red herrings of culture, upbringing, geography, and so forth. Moreover, it presumes that “diversity” can only be attained if racial classification is used, a suggestion which is actually quite offensive to the intended beneficiaries if you stop and think about it.</p>
<p>Fabrizio, I wanted this thread to go away, but you’ve actually issued a really good challenge.</p>
<p>The best case I can make against targeted aid, whether it’s based on race or religion or physical disability or whatever, is that there’s sometimes a mismatch between, on one hand, the aims of programs that try to operate on a societal level to aid disadvantaged groups, and fairness or injustice at the level of the individual, on the other. </p>
<p>I believe that, pages and pages ago, this was the OP’s original complaint. And I never said it was baseless–in fact, I hope I said quite the opposite–but I have tried to say that I think it’s worthwhile to value societal aims and benefit to disadvantaged groups over individuals’ gripes. No system is perfect, but I think it’s better to stick with the imperfections of the status quo than to change.</p>
<p>A lot of folks disagree. These are often folks who tend to favor rugged individualism and to be suspicious of large government–or so I think. I suspect that very often they have stuff that they’ve worked hard to acquire, and they don’t want to give up what they’ve earned.</p>
<p>A lot of people see this way of thinking as quintessentially American. In a way, it may be; I am convinced that the American Revolution was at least as much about taxation and property rights as it was about throwing off tyranny. But whether it’s American or not, I don’t think it’s necessarily good. I’m trying to teach my kids to live by a principle that’s loftier than “I got mine.”</p>
<p>hmm, arguing against Affirmative action. Interesting, I’ll bite.</p>
<p>Affirmative Action only helps a small self-selected group of students. Most Afirmative Action beneficiarees, seen on the African American thread, are brilliant and would have suceeded despite affirmative action. However, most African americans-62/63% live in marginal poverty straits,and know nothing about the SATS talk less of college. Affirmative Action can be problematic because what is really needed to bring rapid change is a huge system which
- prepares African Americans for college
- Gives lower-income African Americans college tutoring
- Focuses not on the most brilliant African Americans but the vast majority
- Begins very early in life.</p>
<p>By these standards, Afrimative action is effective in helping the cream of the crop but not the rest of the barrel. And if African Americans ever want to change their dire straits. thats what afirmative action must do. In this context, Afirmative action is outdated and ineffective.</p>