"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 7

<p>“I have a request for those who support racial preferences: play Devil’s Advocate and argue why there shouldn’t be racial preferences.”</p>

<p>I don’t know that I “support racial preferences”, but I certainly don’t put it on my list of top 1000 things to worry about. Anyway, with a little tongue in cheek…</p>

<p>There should be no racial preferences to juniors with “sub par” SAT scores, because the higher the SAT score, the more qualified the student, given that SAT scores are the best objective measure of “merit” in what “we” want in college students, now, and forever, amen. Even if some familes or groups DID inherit better SAT testing abilities, there is more merit in that, than inheriting more melanin because… because SAT scores are what college is about, and what society valves, NOT melanin.</p>

<p>And further, if new “tests” are developed, and some students can get 3000, or 4000, or 10,000, then that should set the new “bar”. Higher is always better.</p>

<p>I want to associate with people with high scores, and I deserve it, because people with high scores should be together!</p>

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<p>Replace “African Americans” with “students” and you’ve solved the problem of ALL underrepresented minorities in college, and I’m not just talking about racial minorities.</p>

<p>Fabrizio,
Just when all hope was lost you brought it back where it belongs. Your summary of the two reasons are in my mind right on target. I also agree with the reason why curing a past injustice is not a valid reason to promote diversity.
However diversity is I believe a worthy quality in of and by it self.
And so I support the second argument you describe.
I know that you have taken a prior position by saying that a diverse student body does not guarantee the “intermingling” one would hope for. However, in classes that are randomly put together diversity will exist, and that diversity will provide for an honest and frank exchange of ideas on many subjects related to race. As I said in an earlier post, it may not be helpful for the study of tangents and Pi, but it would be useful for a discussion of how racism affects current issues in society. If college is to be a time of broadening the mind how then is that a bad thing?
Again I will state that many colleges see diversity as a good thing. Not a bad thing and not a neutral thing. A good thing that ought to be fostered.
So the real question would be is racial diversity a redeeming quality? I suspect you would not think so, but I also suspect that many believe it to be so. I do believe that you are right when you say that most supporters of Affirmative admission decisions do not understand this point and just support it because of the first argument you made (reparation). I disagree with your belief that diversity will happen on its own if left alone. It, as I said earlier, may happen on a level playing field but the field for whatever reason is not yet level and as such “forced diversity” still can achieve beneficial results.</p>

<p>Fabrizio,
Just when all hope was lost you brought it back where it belongs. Your summary of the two reasons are in my mind right on target. I also agree with the reason why curing a past injustice is not a valid reason to promote diversity.
However diversity is I believe a worthy quality in of and by it self.
And so I support the second argument you describe.
I know that you have taken a prior position by saying that a diverse student body does not guarantee the “intermingling” one would hope for. However, in classes that are randomly put together diversity will exist, and that diversity will provide for an honest and frank exchange of ideas on many subjects related to race. As I said in an earlier post, it may not be helpful for the study of tangents and Pi, but it would be useful for a discussion of how racism affects current issues in society. If college is to be a time of broadening the mind how then is that a bad thing?
Again I will state that many colleges see diversity as a good thing. Not a bad thing and not a neutral thing. A good thing that ought to be fostered.
So the real question would be is racial diversity a redeeming quality? I suspect you would not think so, but I also suspect that many believe it to be so. I do believe that you are right when you say that most supporters of Affirmative admission decisions do not understand this point and just support it because of the first argument you made (reparation). I disagree with your belief that diversity will happen on its own if left alone. It, as I said earlier, may happen on a level playing field but the field for whatever reason is not yet level and as such “forced diversity” still can achieve beneficial results.</p>

<p>My biggest problem with nil’s answer is that he/she wants a “huge system” to accomplish her wish list. If one thing is obvious it’s this: Systems are not capable of doing what you suggest. Systems can provide opportunities. That’s it. The opportunity to prepare African Americans for college already exists in this country. Taking advantage of that opportunity can only be accomplished by the students. </p>

<p>Talk to any teacher and he or she will tell you that a student’s best chance of success occurs when they have: (1) a stable family environment; (2) parents with high expectations of academic success; and (3) constant encouragement to succeed from home. When a student lacks any one of these three factors, their chances of succeeding academically are reduced substantially, regardless how powerful or huge the “system.” </p>

<p>I think one of the reasons you see people like Matt so angry is that they don’t understand why kids who go to the same high school, have the same access to AP classes, ECs, etc. should be treated differently by colleges, since they’ve obviously been given the same institutional opportunities. </p>

<p>Personally, I do believe in affirmative action. I believe that any student who lacks one or more of the above three factors should be given a boost in the college admission process. That way, perhaps they will raise a family that doesn’t lack those factors, making all of society the beneficiary of affirmative action. But like many out there, I do not understand why anyone would receive the benefits of affirmative action if they have all three of the above, regardless of their skin color. Unless the purpose of affirmative action is to simply add color to a college campus, regardless of background, I do not see why any URM raised in a good family where education is valued should be given any boost. Likewise, I think any student who lacks the three factors above should be given a boost even if their skin is white or yellow.</p>

<p>I have a Korean last name and am ethnically Korean. But, I’m an Australian citizen with an Australian passport and throughout school I have had an entirely American education. My mother and uncle are also Australian citizens. My parents own buildings and homes in Australia as well as the U.S. WILL MY KOREAN RACE REALLY AFFECT ME THAT MUCH?</p>

<p>^The idea that Asians have a disadvantage in college acceptance is overblown, IMO. I go to a school with a large Asian population and each year the top kids go to great schools. Not everyone who wants to go to HYPS makes it, of course, but that’s true of any cross-section of the applicant pool. I haven’t seen a list, but I think the worst school that someone in the top 10 percent of our class went to last year was UC Irvine, and that’s a great school. Off of the top of my head, last year we had around 12 accepted into Ivy league schools, two into Chicago, and one each to MIT, Duke, Northwestern, Hopkins, Carnagie Mellon, and George Washington. The rest went to western schools like UCLA, Berkeley, Pomona, UCSB, UCI, etc. So don’t worry about the rumors of a significant disadvantage. I thought the same thing a few years ago but I just haven’t seen the rumor become fact yet.</p>

<p>^My understanding is that Middle Eastern students are considered white. If a student has experienced discrimination due to his or her religion, they could certainly write an essay about it. Checking an ethnicity box isn’t the end of the application.</p>

<p>Handala, isn’t your question heading in a whole different direction, though, since not all Middle Easterners are Muslim and not all Muslims are Middle Eastern? I’ll admit there’s the possibility for bias when Americans mistakenly think that anybody from, say, Jordan must be a Muslim, but it still seems to me like a different (if no less thorny) question.</p>

<p>“What about Middle Eastern students? Why are they never mentioned as URMs, or students with disadvantages…”</p>

<p>It get’s mentioned every twenty pages or so ( i.e. see post #8 and #53), depending on how active things are at the time.</p>

<p>Also, while I’m quite sure that Muslims and Middle Easterners often confront bias in America, I’m not sure that Middle Easterners can meet the “underrepresented” requirement for being a URM. Can they?</p>

<p>The following provocative questions are posted in the spirit of [advocating</a> for the Devil](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064234310-post457.html]advocating”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064234310-post457.html):</p>

<p>For advocates of ‘Diversity’ or for those that asert that we’re all bascially the same and ‘race’-based preferences are unfair, does your philosophy extend to your personal spouse/partner selection criterion? </p>

<p>Does ‘race’ matter/not matter when it comes to your contributions to the formation of the next generation?</p>

<p>Is your philosophy/advocacy logically consistent in all circumstances?</p>

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<p>I don’t see the relevance of this question. Setting social policy is different from choosing a mate. The goal of creating cultural diversity is to bring people with different backgrounds and values together so they can learn from each other and find a way to coexist more peacefully. The goal of choosing a life partner, for me at least, was to find someone whose values (if not background) matched my own closely. Choosing a mate, I think, has as little to do with promoting cultural diversity as–I don’t know–car shopping. Buy a Subaru if you think it’s a good car, but don’t do it to promote cultural diversity or cross-racial understanding.</p>

<p>“does your philosophy extend to your personal spouse/partner selection criterion?”</p>

<p>Here’s what I have to say about that. </p>

<p>My H and I, both Black, met at Einstein of all places! While I had dated less “diverlsy” in the past, if “diversity” contributed to my marriage and my kids, that’s a good thing. </p>

<p>Black women have a tough time in the “marriage” scenario, and if you don’t think this is true, check out the statistics, not to mention the “kids” forums. Many would agree that marriage is good. </p>

<p>So while I don’t have any intention of influencing my D’s “partner selection”, if "diversity’ helps her find someone like my H, again, it’s a good thing. </p>

<p>I am less, but still concerned, about my son.</p>

<p>I just saw this link on another website that mostly discusses online businesses: </p>

<p>[Your</a> international web app gets ethnicity wrong - Cube Of M](<a href=“http://blog.cubeofm.com/your-international-web-app-gets-ethnicity-wro]Your”>http://blog.cubeofm.com/your-international-web-app-gets-ethnicity-wro)</p>

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064241146-post476.html]#476[/url]”>quote</a> I don’t see the relevance of this question. Setting social policy is different from choosing a mate…</p>

<p>…Choosing a mate, I think, has as little to do with promoting cultural diversity…

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<p>Food for thought:</p>

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<p>And I have every intention of associating freely with minorities, and not going “oh well I can’t date her she’s black”. This doesn’t mean that the most important person in my life must be a minority, any more than a college’s smartest student must be.</p>

<p>to tokenadult’s post stating all schools that receive federal funding(including Harvard) must adhere to affirmative action regulations:</p>

<p>would you agree with my second point that it will be almost impossible for a group of students to prove that Harvard has done wrong in its affirmative action policy?</p>

<p>UMichigan is a huge school, a public school, and some people are virtually guarunteed a spot (4.0 2400, for example.)</p>

<p>Harvard could reject all the 4.0 2400s that apply and justify its decisions. </p>

<p>If I can deduce this, then Harvard must also be aware of this. Therefore, it probably has free reins in implementing AA.</p>

<p>^ </p>

<p>Yes, some lawyers commented after the Grutter and Gratz pair of Supreme Court cases were decided that now it is largely possible for colleges to make up a rationale for what they do, whatever they do, under the federal law on race in college admission. It is interesting that the University of Michigan changed its admission standards, as the university acknowledged, after the voter initiative in that state that says that race can’t be an admission factor at all.</p>

<p>I received a reminder to fill out the 2010 census form in yesterday’s mail. The census of course is the basis for our estimates of how many people there are in each federally defined race and ethnicity category in the United States. Look at your census form carefully when you receive it and fill it out accurately.</p>