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<p>How is being raised in a single-parent home or being denied honors courses proof of racism? </p>
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<p>I go to a school that’s 90% white. If I would want to go to a study group, I would just be as uncomfortable as a black kid would be. It would be the same thing for the teachers as well.</p>
<p>@ fabrizio
RE: #156</p>
<p>I want schools where there is adequate representation of all racial groups, and not schools dominated by certain ethnic groups. I think schools where there are Asian students, White students, Black students, Hispanic students, and _____ students along with an equally diverse teaching staff will be the best learning environment. And yes, I do also think Black teachers will subconsciously favor black children. For example I connect so much better with my black Jazz instructor than I do with my White history teacher. The Black teacher understands how its like to be a Black male growing up in America, a White teacher clearly does not because he never experienced that. Also, are you denying that people feel more comfortable around folks who look like them? </p>
<p>@ fabrizio
RE: #158</p>
<p>If the folks on the Harvard admissions committee were foaming at the mouth anti-Semites, why were so many Jewish people accepted into Harvard University? I do agree that there was anti-Semitism at that time, but it was nowhere near the severity of the hostility and hate directed at African Americans.</p>
<p>@ chaosakita
I did not say growing up in a single parent home was racism. But I did feel like be denied enrollment in honors courses even though I met the prerequisites (and thus should have been placed in those courses) was racist.</p>
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<p>The problem isn’t that “a few well off blacks” benefit from it, it is that these well-off blacks are the main ones benefiting from it, without any help to people who need it from any race.</p>
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<p>Wow, Asians are “ridiculously” overrepresented? What should it be then?</p>
<p>I’m guessing you live in California, because Asians only make up 5% of the population overall.</p>
<p>You need to get out of your bubble and realize that most of the blacks at top colleges come from well-to-do middle-class families as well. In addition to the IHE article mentioned, more than 33% of blacks at Duke were from families that made over $100k and less made under $50k (median household income of America). They weren’t as wealthy as other groups (including Latinos), but it’s hardly the same vision of the inner-city as you think it is. </p>
<p>Just because on average black students are less likely to be in a two-parent family and receive less at home doesn’t mean people of all races don’t suffer from these things as well, nor does it mean that these are the people who are going to top schools either.</p>
<p>You also seemed to miss the post made that even after Jews were discriminated against in Harvard, they still made up a huge percentage of the students too.</p>
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<p>Perhaps so, but that doesn’t change the nature of the validity of AA. Just because the college wants something doesn’t mean it’s the right thing (see sports players and legacy admits). And while not as high as officials would want them to be, at top universities, minorities do make up 20-30% of the school. It’s not just a “few.”</p>
<p>^^^^</p>
<p>Yea, but how do we know that every Black at Duke benefited from AA? Isn’t it possible that those wealthy Blacks were admitted on their own merit?</p>
<p>ALL people who are accepted to amazing colleges get in on their own merit.</p>
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<p>What is "adequate representation?'</p>
<p>Perhaps I do feel better around people of my race/ethnicity in general, but that’s not the only that counts into how I feel about someone. But currently, it doesn’t matter, because most teachers at the top school are still white and will probably be for a long time. If you’re so desperate to be around people like you, you can go to a HCBU. Actually, since people just feel better around people like them, why not segregate everyone into separate societies? Maybe the world will work better that way.</p>
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<p>Where did anyone say that? No one is linking anything about Jews and blacks together in this thread, except for maybe you.</p>
<p>How come you don’t answer anything with something other than a question?</p>
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<p>I never said all black people admitted there were there because of AA. However, as you can see, blacks did have lower qualifications according to the Duke applications committee.</p>
<p>Re 162</p>
<p>But if “White teachers usually subconsciously prefer other white kids” and “Black teachers usually subconsciously prefer other black kids,” then how does a school with an “adequate” representation of all racial groups solve the problem of subconsciously favoring children of the same racial classification as the teacher? The white teachers would still subconsciously prefer the white kids, even if there were many other non-white high-achieving kids. Ditto for the black teachers. What you wrote was an unintentional endorsement of separate-but-equal segregated educational facilities.</p>
<p>Anti-Semitism didn’t need to be “[any]where near the severity of the hositlity and hate directed at blacks” for it to be a problem. The ever-increasing enrollment of Jews sufficiently incensed Lowell that he tried multiple mechanisms for controlling their enrollment until he finally succeeded. For whatever reason, he could accept a 15% Jewish Harvard but a 20% Jewish Harvard was unacceptable with no further discussion.</p>
<p>The key takeaway from the Jews at Harvard in the 1920s is that “overrepresentation” doesn’t disprove discrimination.</p>
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<p>If you truly believe this, then there is no reason to support racial preferences.</p>
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<p>It is one thing to be more comfortable among people who share your background but it is quite another to be more comfortable among people who “look like you”. I consider the latter to be a form of racial prejudice. I don’t deny its existence but I do not believe it is an instinct to be celebrated or nurtured.</p>
<p>I suspect that a black American and a white American traveling in Zimbabwe are going to feel a lot more comfortable with each other than to the locals- whether they are white locals or black locals.</p>
<p>@ chaosakita</p>
<p>“In spite of rabid and institutionalized anti-Semitism at the time, Harvard probably didn’t start out actively discriminating against Jews.”</p>
<p>Adequate representation is not being underrepresented.</p>
<p>I just said that I would prefer a place where everyone is adequately represented, why are you making it seem like I want segregation? Or are you projected your own views? </p>
<p>EDIT: seemed a bit harsh. </p>
<p>@ Jaddua</p>
<p>Exactly. I’m sorry if I made it seem otherwise in my post regarding wealthy Blacks.</p>
<p>@ fabrizio</p>
<p>I think we should agree to disagree about Jewish students and Harvard in the 1920’s. But I ask you: Do you believe that an Asian student who offers a College something it wants will be denied admission? Do you also agree that racial diversity contributes positively to a learning environment? if yes, isn’t it acceptable for AA to help Blacks who faced racism for 300 years gain acceptance into college?</p>
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<p>I think you meant to direct the above response to me, as I was the source of the sentence you quoted.</p>
<p>What is “not being underrepresented”? Does it refer to a mythical “correct”-level of representation? Can’t it also refer to “overrepresentation,” since an “overrepresented” group is by definition “not ‘underrepresented’”? Who decides what constitutes “adequate” representation? There are many problems associated with arguing for an “adequate” level of representation.</p>
<p>I am simply pointing out that logically, if indeed “[insert race here] teachers usually subconsciously prefer other [insert same race here] kids,” then the optimal solution is to have separate-but-equal segregated educational facilities. Only then can it be guaranteed that teachers treat their pupils equally on the basis of racial classification. They might prefer some students over others, of course, but if all students are of the same racial classification as the teacher, then how can the teacher play favoritism on the basis of race? He can’t.</p>
<p>Again, I am merely noting that the natural consequence of your argument is the endorsement of segregation. That is why I emphasized it was a dangerous line of thinking. I just wanted to make sure that you were aware of what you were saying.</p>
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<p>We can agree to disagree, sure. But it must understood that Jews at Harvard were discriminated against between 1922 and 1933 (and indeed, even beyond), yet at 15% of the 1933 freshman class, they were undoubtedly “overrepresented” in spite of institutionalized discrimination.</p>
<ol>
<li>There is no guarantee that even those students who offer colleges something they want will be accepted. Yale is looking for a top violist. Farooq has stellar academic qualifications and is the best high school violist in Montana. Sergei likewise has impressive academic qualifications and is the best high school violist in New Mexico. Yale’s only looking for one violist, but both apply. Who gets the spot? (For sake of argument, assume that these two are the best of the best with respect to high school violists.)</li>
</ol>
<p>So the answer to your question is “Maybe, maybe not.”</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I think diversity is a great thing, but I don’t think it’s so great as to grant college administrators carte blanche to conduct positive or negative racial discrimination. I am of the mind that there is no need to manufacture diversity. As long as you do not have institutionalized segregation and Jim Crow-type laws, you will get diversity.</p></li>
<li><p>I point out that the Supreme Court has never sanctioned the “historical injustice” argument to legitimize affirmative action. There is one and only one acceptable defense: the promotion and development of “diversity.”</p></li>
</ol>
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<p>So I assume you support the elimination of AA?</p>
<p>@ vicariousparent</p>
<p>People of the same race are more likely to have similar backgrounds/experiences. I remember reading an article about a Black woman in Utah who would literally stop other Black women/men at the airport terminal and ask whether or not they lived there, and proceed to exchange contact information if they did. Why? Because other Blacks were more likely to experience what she has, to understand her better.</p>
<p>[A</a> Different State of Race Relations - washingtonpost.com](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/31/AR2008053100972.html]A”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/31/AR2008053100972.html)</p>
<p>There’s the link. It’s on page 4.</p>
<p>@ fabrizio</p>
<p>RE: #174</p>
<p>I do not support “Separate but equal” education. I believe we can learn from each other, and that diversity contributes positively to the learning environment. And yes, I do believe there is a guarantee that a student who offers what a College wants will be granted admission. Maybe they’ll pick the Montana applicant because they also want more representation from that state?</p>
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<p>So do Asians have to go back to 5% to make sure that the whites can have their fair share of representation too. But what is “underrepresentation?”</p>
<p>It was the logical conclusion for your views. Please don’t accuse me of projection, thanks.</p>
<p>Unintended consequences can and do happen. When you say you don’t support segregation, of course I believe you. To argue that black students are disadvantaged compared to white students when the teacher is white because “White teachers usually subconsciously prefer other white kids” is, however, a very dangerous line of thinking, for it naturally leads to the unsavoury conclusion that separate-but-equal segregated educational facilities are better than integrated educational facilities.</p>
<p>Clearly, you were unaware that what you wrote can only be understood as an unintended endorsement of segregation. To assert that black students are disadvantaged compared to their white peers because study groups may be exclusively white is naturally to argue that black students would be better off at schools where the study groups would be exclusively black. The only such schools are those that are segregated by racial classification.</p>
<p>You appear to still be in high school, which was when I started discussing affirmative action on these forums. I remember how I hated being patronised by older members, and so I won’t patronise you if you are still in high school. I just want to point out that it is very dangerous to make the argument of racial disadvantage on the basis of “subconscious preferences” and on the possibility that the racial makeup of study groups discourages black students from attending.</p>