<p>So, are we basically down to two kinds of people, those who do and those who do not see the need for Adcoms to know whether they have a black applicant from an inner city poor minority school, who lives in a poor black community, attends a poor black church and has poor uneducated parents or whether the applicant is a poor white kid, with college educated parents, who attends a suburban school, white church with charitable educated and wealthy members? In other words, do we have people who do not believe there are motivated black kids from the black world, with slightly lower SAT & other test scores, because of a lack of knowledge about the admissions process, that may do better on the GRE after four years of college than some unmotivated spoilt white kid, who had all the information (about AP courses/ Tests, SAT & SAT IIs, Math and Science competitions, Summer programs etc) at the appropriate time in elementary, middle and high school and prepared for them and did fractionally better?</p>
<p>There are poor white kids and poor Asian kids also, why punish them for their race?</p>
<p>When I was a graduate student we (the family of two) lived on a $800 monthly stipend that we had to pay for rent/food and we didn’t get a leg up.</p>
<p>Racial preference is plain unhealthy. I will support race blind and implement socioeconomical preference.</p>
<p>^It is not just about poverty, it is also about the world a poor person comes from (rich with knowledge to succeed in college and $s or not). my post gives the example of a poor White and a poor Black living in an America that is culturally/ socially still very segregated. Apparently, some of us can see the need for an Adcom to know the race of an applicant who comes from that world. We are talking about kids who are 17/ 18 years old who are brought up in a segregated world that is not of their own making. They cannot be expected to overcome these obstacles that grown ups can overcome. A white or Asian who claims to have these obstacles will have to show which community in America he is from, where they have such obstacles, because it is unlikely that such Asian/ White communities (lacking knowledge) exist.</p>
<p>" poor white kid, with college educated parents, who attends a suburban school, white church with charitable educated and wealthy members?"</p>
<p>There is no poor kid from a family where both parents are college educated unless the parents were doing drug or alcoholic and couldn’t work which they would still be in poor neighborhood. </p>
<p>Poor kids are usually in poor neighborhood with parents care less about kids education no matter what race they are. Poverty and social environment are correlated. </p>
<p>Using economic status + their essays is certainly better than using race + their essays.</p>
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<p>Poverty and lack of parental education can equally be factors for Whites, Blacks and Asians. However, you are not addressing my point:</p>
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<p>So why don’t you give us examples of such communities where wealthy and educated Whites and Asians are not working thru their community organizations and churches in helping poor kids with getting knowledge that prepares them for college?</p>
<p>^You probably never been to a white small town in the middle of no where with population of 200. The town is basically poor and isolated with very little resources for kids.</p>
<p>You probably never been to any China town where some people live for the rest of their lives and never get a chance to get out.</p>
<p>Worst poverty/environment is among white in rural area.</p>
<p>There are actually admissions officers who are assigned to work with applicants from particularly unusual zip codes. It is just that discriminating according to zip code is not illegal, so it does not get talked about much. So, clearly an Adcom would be interested in poor whites like this. This in no way diminishes the need for Adcoms to know that an applicant is Black and from a Black world. The Adcoms are professionals who know what they need. It is you who is sitting on the outside second guessing them, telling them they do not need to know the race of an applicant.</p>
<p>This may have been discussed previously, but I haven’t read the whole thread. </p>
<p>One of my concerns for African American kids at holistic admission schools is how others may assume they got in because of an easier admission process, even if that is not true. An African American boy from my son’s school got into an Ivy last year. He is a brilliant kid with amazing scores, grades, EC’s. But I imagine that many people assume he got an unfair boost because of his race and was undeserving. </p>
<p>This is a concern about how this process may backfire, and how, again, racial minorities may have to prove themselves all over again. It is unfortunate and makes me weary. </p>
<p>I don’t have a good answer to all of this. I get tired of the bitterness involved in the discussions involving race. I get sad for Asian kids who feel penalized because of their race. I have seen many Asian kids who do NOT have parents who help them get into schools. Many are from immigrant families and their parents do not speak the language, and the kids are on their own in terms of navigating the college admission process.</p>
<p>I get tired of the bickering involved regarding race and who is entitled to a college education. I look at stats of who gets into certain schools and I see bitterness and racial anger and question where this will lead in the long run.</p>
<p>^As far as “I imagine that many people assume he got an unfair boost because of his race and was undeserving”, </p>
<p>I think, failure often leads many people to blame others for their mistakes. I suppose it is probably easier for a White person to blame a Black kid than the alternative (blame themself) for not getting in. I imagine many bitter Blacks and Asians do the same type of thinking about Whites, assume most Whites get in due to unfair boosts thru legacy, political/ economic influence, nepotism and zip code discrimination etc. I doubt this bothers many Whites. I also doubt what bitter Whites think bothers many Blacks.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that Adcoms are professionals who are working to serve the interests of their institution and decide who will serve it best. These Adcoms need race information to make effective decisions, as I have shared, to get the best and most qualified student body.</p>
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<p>Why is racial classification relevant here at all? That is, if racial classification were omitted from your example, how would adcoms’ jobs be made harder?</p>
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<p>What a straw man! Of course there are motivated “black kids from the black world”; no racial classification has a monopoly on motivation. What does that have to do with justifying racial preferences? Nothing.</p>
<p>perazziman “There are actually admissions officers who are assigned to work with applicants from particularly unusual zip codes.”</p>
<p>Really? You are no expert, you are not an adcom professional. You are a parent asking about how admission process like! If they use zip code, why can’t they just identify Queens, New York and give black/white/hispanic/asian kids in that zip code a leg up? It is not wise to say things you don’t know.</p>
<p>“I suppose it is probably easier for a White person to blame a Black kid than the alternative (blame themself) for not getting in.”</p>
<p>I don’t think a White kid is going to “blame” a black kid because he/she didn’t get in. I think that it is the admissions process that creates a murky picture and sometimes results in taking sides. It is not that different than when someone finds out that an admit is a legacy or an athlete. The admit may have stellar grades, etc., but because of these other factors, the admit may feel he/she has to prove that the admission was not just due to sports or legacy status.</p>
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<p>Do you not see that a poor Black kid does not have the same choice of attending a poor White Community and Church organization that a poor White kid might? If you do, then you should be able to see why an Adcom would want to know the race of an applicant.</p>
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<p>It is not the admissions process that creates a murky picture, it our minds that create a murky picture (or not), in my opinion.</p>
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<p>You cannot because entire Zip codes are not black, Hispanic or White in large cities. If there is an isolated rural area with a small population then Adcoms know it is not close to a large city and treat it differently. I know that Admissions appoint individuals to work on specific zip codes because I was told this by an Admissions officer at an Ivy League during a visit with my son.</p>
<p>From back at [post</a> #7](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13396909-post7.html]post”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13396909-post7.html) of this very long thread, “Why I Care about This Issue.” The best reason not to classify people routinely by race as a matter of day-by-day law is to defeat the legacy of the segregationists and to let people be people. I get the impression that because Trayvon Martin was classified as “that black guy” rather than as “the boy over there walking back from the store” he ended up dead while doing something completely innocent. I would like to live in a society in which my children are known to their neighbors and to strangers newly meeting them as individuals, not just another one of those [insert poorly-fitting classification here]. That would be better for our whole society. If somebody’s parents are poor because the parents work in nonprofit organizations or care for sick elders (two reasons I can think of why even college-educated parents might be poor), then perhaps a college admission office can take into account an individual child’s individual background of poverty when judging whether the child did “enough” extracurriculars or whatever. But I think race classification has been a bad idea for as long as it has been tried in the United States, and for as long as it has been tried in other countries (where, it is important to note, the categories are usually quite a bit different from the categories used in the United States). Better for all inhabitants of one country to be equal under the law.</p>
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<p>I agree. When answering questions about race in college applications or government forms, I believe, I am answering questions on how I would have been classified under racist segregationist laws when they were practiced in this country, so social scientists today can monitor the state of the disease of racism in our society, not because scientists believe I actually belong to that race. Thus, I do not feel I am being classified by race at all, when I answer these questions.</p>
<p>Tokenadult</p>
<p>Really well said.</p>
<p>So not to stir things up too much, but here’s an example of holistic admissions that is an example that is what I think aggravates many, and which, I believe, may not always serve the individual well.</p>
<p>I was looking at the recent admit/rejection stats on CC for one of the ivies. Most of the kids who were accepted/rejected had amazing stats. One African American boy, though had a 3.4 GPA, his SATs were in the 1800s and he had two ECs - National Honor Society and singing in his church choir. He also did some volunteer work. So one might say, OK, maybe his essays were good. But in his final comment at the bottom of the page, his one sentence was quite grammatically incorrect. So, then, what caught the adcoms eyes about this boy? What stood out? Maybe he had great recoms., but clearly, his stats were quite different than most of the other admits. He might be a great kid. But this is an ivy that is notorious for grade deflation. Will this boy be able to compete and even survive in such a difficult environment? Is the adcom doing him any favors by admitting him?</p>
<p>I know that my son, who is a junior in h.s., and who has SATs in the 2000 range and a 3.65 GPA would never survive at this ivy. It would be too hard. I would never encourage him to apply to it. And I know he wouldn’t stand a chance of getting in.</p>
<p>I don’t have the answers, but I was definitely struck by the discrepancy in this boy’s stats compared with many of the white and Asian applicants. And this is an example of what sticks in the craw of a lot of people. And yes, racism exists and is horrible. And what African Americans have to face in our society is horrible. But how do admissions like this compensate for this?</p>
<p>Race does play a role when it comes to admission to Yale, Brown etc. The admission decisions are made based on how the alumini grades you. Thus, an applicant with excellent grades, perfect scores may be turned down because of lack of cultural knowledege and background of the student they are interviewing. This is something schools like Yale/Brown etc should think about.</p>
<p>Maggiedog,
A single data point won’t tell you much. For all you know this kid is at a school where a 3.4 puts him in the top 5 percent.</p>