And some things are akin to a seance, like trying to claim with confidence what a person who died in 1968 would have thought about the issues of 2019, had they lived another 51 years.
For the curious, here are the relevant quotes.
Toni Morrison: “[Race] is the least important information about a person you should know. It’s not a penetration of a personality.”
Martin Luther King: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
Absolutely agree. We could make some educated guesses based on the large body of work he left behind, all the speeches and sermons and letters, but it’s a pointless exercise.
Recent efforts to twist his words - “I have a dream” is the most common one used for that purpose - to suggest he thought race didn’t matter or wasn’t important - are similarly futile. Perhaps that approach works with people who haven’t really read his work.
“Twist his words” - giggle. You’re the one doing the “twisting.”
Try again: The man explicitly said - his words could not possibly have been clearer - we must NOT make decisions (“judge”) on the basis of race (“skin color”).
And he explicitly said that we SHOULD make those decisions on the basis of individuals’ behavior independent of their race (“content of character”).
No one can fail to understand the meaning of such plain speech. It’s unambiguous: individuals, not racial groups. Character, not skin color.
@thibault I know what he said. I understand it clearly.
You’re the one who seems to think that statement means MLK wouldn’t support affirmative action.
But dig a little deeper, read a little more, you may be surprised at what you find.
I’ve seen enough of your posts here in CC to know you are a very intelligent person. I don’t believe you believe those quotes indicate that either Morrison or MLK would have voted against Affirmative Action.
You must have a reason for posting this as if you want others to believe it, but I know you yourself do you believe it.
Intelligent people can disagree on affirmative action - its purpose, proper use, and intended lifespan.
What cannot be denied, or gainsaid, or spun, is what the lady and the man actually said.
Your argument is with Toni Morrison and MLK.
Both MLK and Toni Morrison were agreeing that you shouldn’t judge a person by the color of their skin. However, you can only get to know the content of their character through meaningful dialogue. The dialogue occurs through conversation and interaction. You cant have this interaction if you have never conversed and heard the opinions and thoughts of a person of another race. Hence, the diversity (via AA or whatever method) on campus helps you to learn about the person and become able to judge them based on the content of their character and not just something you heard about their race. When you know a person then it is possible for their race to be the least important thing about them.
I believe in the quotes from Toni Morrison and MLK and think about the fact that they both graduated from HBCUs at a time where the options for an African American attending a college were limited. There are still inequities that permeate American society in regards to race and I believe that those against AA who do not acknowledge that fact hurt their arguments.
My only goal for my household was to make AA a completely obsolete concept. I will probably refrain from commenting further because I believe the true answer (for AA to one day go away soon because URMs are quickly catching up/caught up in every measurable way) is to work to fix the societal/family/educational problems that contribute to the underachievement of underrepresented minorities in the 1st place. And since that topic doesn’t seem to be on the radar, I see no end in sight for the underachievement of large swaths of URMs whether AA stays or goes away.
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Correcting deficiencies that have their roots in centuries of oppression is on my radar, but I don’t such a discussion is appropriate for this thread, and probably not for CC at all.
To properly have that conversation, we have to start so far back in the past that people who are not inclined to agree there is a problem in the first place won’t make the effort, and thus won’t be able to contribute meaningfully to the conversation. It would be like discussing Multivariable Calculus with 5th graders … but with 5th graders who insist they know all the answers and who want to be the loudest voices in the conversation.
Great topic, @ChangeTheGame , but not the right place.
I was not saying intelligent people cannot disagree on affirmative action. I was saying no person utilizing their intelligence, who knew extensively of the lives and works of MLK and Morrison, could ever believe that the quotes you listed earlier indicated those two people believed America was a “raceless” society where the color of one’s skin has not had an impact over the centuries on the quality of life of minorities in America.
Do not forget that, at the very beginning of the quote you presented, Dr MLK referred to an America where his children would be judged on the content of their character and not on the color of their skin as a “DREAM.” He did not believe that was the reality of modern America. He was fighting to help America begin moving toward that dream, and he was murdered to prevent America from achieving that dream.
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MODERATOR’S NOTE:
Let’s move on from Edward Blum please.
Back to the general topic of “race” in college applications…
While researching LACs for D20, I came across some interesting information. JBHE publishes acceptance data for Black students at top colleges and universities every year. Despite all of the hand-wringing and bemoaning that Black (and other “minority”) students have an advantage in admissions, the data does not uniformly support that. At many of the top LACs, acceptance rates for Black students are LOWER THAN the overall acceptance rate. The same is true at some of the top universities. I know there is a lot that can go into those numbers and they would need to be unpacked a bit, but I find it interesting. My D20 is applying to several SLAC and when her (non-Black) friends mention she has a big advantage as a “hooked” applicant, she kindly recites some of the acceptance stats that indicate otherwise.
Those asking don’t happen to be legacies at legacy-preferring colleges they are applying to?
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MODERATOR’S NOTE: It seems that periodically this thread devolves into name-calling and debating, neither of which is permitted under the Terms of Service.
Since is the second instance in one day that a moderator had to post a note, I am closing the thread for awhile.
Keep in mind that the prohibition against discussing race in admissions in any other thread still stands.
Applicants are not required to identify as Asian or White or anything else if they prefer not to do so–so how would schools know ?
Top universities in the US are ultra-competitive for all.
Some URMs & other categories, such as first generation, get a boost in the admissions process–and deservedly so, in my opinion–but well qualified non-URMs & non-disadvantaged backgrounds are all in the same boat with respect to admissions.
@Publisher, by name in many cases. It’s not as if adcoms blot out applicant names, and many Asian-Americans have surnames that reflect their ancestry.
In any case, the tippy-top schools are insanely difficult to get in to by anyone without a hook. Tough to tell if Asian-Americans are disadvantaged even more so or not, but it’s also not worth spending time and energy on because it’s not something you can do much about. The US has a huge number of all types of colleges. The key (and it is tougher work than in most countries) is deciding what goals you want to strive for in life, why, and how to get there.
Last name can be a big give away for many.
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UC schools do not consider race in admissions. Schools that have high % of Asians and Asian Americans might have different admission decision formulas regarding Asian/Asian Americans than some schools with lower percentages. There are a number of LACs where being Asian/Asian American is an URM. if you look at schools that have fly in days for minorities, some list Asian/Asian Americans as those they are trying to get to apply for the fly in program and to increase representation of in their schools.
Anecdotally, it seems that Asian Americans at my son’s high school have not gotten into schools that other less qualified in terms of grades, test scores, as well as ECs.
This is a topic that can cause deep disagreement and argument. Personally, I do think that there are schools where being Asian or Asian American does seem to make it more difficult to get into them. However, there are schools that it can make it easier to get in (schools looking to increase Asian/Asian-American enrollment and schools like the U of California schools where race isn’t taken into considerations.
I do strongly support affirmative actions. At the same time, I also do think the way things play out in admissions, it doesn’t appear to always be fair to Asian Americans. My friend from China things this is particularly true for Asian American males.
In my son’s case, I have not felt that being Asian America (or ‘mixed race’) didn’t seem to hurt his college admissions. Maybe it did but maybe in some cases it also helped. I am not sure and I guess will never know.
I think it really depends. Schools are looking to create classes that are diversified by many measures, so depending on the demographics Asian applicants might have some advantage or disadvantage. We live in Asia and were told that Asian applicants may have a demographic advantage in the Northeast and the Midwest (probably the South as well?) but not on the West Coast. That made sense to me and was generally consistent with our son’s experience applying last year. Also “Asian” is a very broad concept that covers both international and Asian-American applicants. International applicants generally have a tougher time than US citizen applicants of any ethnicity. My advice in any event would be not to get too hung up on this, as schools look at applicants from many different perspectives and you will have the opportunity to present yourself as an individual. For the same reason, it is wise to cast as wide a net as you are comfortable with, in terms of size, selectivity, location, etc. - that way, it is more likely that you will find a school that is looking for someone just like you.
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