"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

Applying to College
4861

I am sure it can be more difficult at some schools trying to have a class that is a mosaic of the country at large. It seems that culturally Asian American families place an extremely high value on secondary education.

So perhaps there are a disproportional number of highly qualified candidates than represented in the society at large.

Perhaps as communities form, there may be many people of a similar culture clustered. So there are a lot of kids from one school or area applying from the same cultural background and they don’t want to fill a class from one area or school.

Also it’s not just Asian students. Take BC, this year was a blood bath for east coast students and Catholic school students with plus 1500 and nearly 4.0s either wl or rejected. Check out the results thread. Maybe one student in the 1400s accepted and not from the east coast. So it depends. I’m sure ND is the same.

Southeast Asians face many of the same hurdles too. It’s just really competitive.

4862

I do not think that the universities want us to know how much of a difference it makes, and it is hard to know quite what is going on.

We got some hint from the information that was made public in the Harvard lawsuit.

We get some more of a hint from looking at the students enrolled at academically strong schools that do not consider race in admissions. Two obvious examples are McGill and Caltech.

Another way that we get a hint is just seeing where the children of our friends go to university. I happen to have a large number of good friends who are either Asian-American or just straight Asian (still living in Asia). The latter are of course international students for schools in North America. However, for the former we get to see where their kids go to university versus where the kids of other friends go to university.

We also get a hint from seeing the superb graduates who are coming from our in-state public universities. These kids were just as strong when they were coming out of high school, and our public in-state public school is where they got in.

My sense of what I have seen is that it makes quite a large difference. I am hoping that the embarrassment over the Harvard lawsuit might slightly reduce the amount of difference. However it is very hard to know what is going on.

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4863

There were other threads about schools that treat Asians/Asian Americans as under represented minorities that may be helpful to read.

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2088166-colleges-looking-for-asian-diversity.html

4864

It depends on the school. Calfornia schools can’t judge based on race. I applied to a school in the south that had very few Asians and I think that being Asian certainly helped in landing a massive scholarship. However, I have heard that some schools in the Ivy league may discriminate such as Harvard. So do yourself a favor and look at the race stats of each school you apply to. If there are a lot of Asians, it won’t help to be Asain, but it won’t really harm you unless you are looking a getting into the Ivy League. Even then, there are other things more important than color.

4865

Folks, discussion of race on this thread will likely lead to it being closed. Although I have strong feelings about this, there is a separate thread where discussion of race is allowed.

4866

I think that was this thread, which has been closed: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1843141-race-in-college-applications-faq-discussion-12-p243.html

4867

Yes, in general Asians face tougher odds at most of the highly selective universities. Regardless what they say, many of these schools effectively target a percentage of the class that they wish to be Asian, and so the competition becomes within cohort rather than across cohorts.

However, there is a positive at the most selective universities for Asians in my opinion. Schools not only target demographic balance by race, but they also target percentage representation of legacy and donor/special interest groups. Because of the demographics of selective universities 25-35 years ago, Asians are less represented in those groups. That eases the competition somewhat for unhooked Asians, as the percentage of Asians who are unhooked is typically larger than that of unhooked whites, for instance, in an admitted class. Just my opinion, of course.

4868

Reading through CC decision posts and just from what people have said, it seems like Asians have a much harder time getting into top universities than a person with the same scores of any other ethnicity. Is this true and if so to what extent?

4869

I have been reading bits and pieces of this thread and feel that it is important to have URMs in top tier schools because of their expanded spheres of influence. Many move on to be the movers and shakers of public policy development and the social engineering of our society. I live in Canada and recent news has highlighted the systemic racism experienced by the Indigenous population in the health sector. Turpel-Lafonde’s “In Plain Sight” which this lawyer addresses Indigenous-specific racism experienced BC hospitals, it brings home the point that indigenous perspectives are desperately needed in the training of Health Care Professionals(HCPs). Participants talk of ‘angry hands’ they have experience all their lives when at the mercy of HCPs. Having the Indigenous Ways of Knowing and Being included in the classrooms can start a shift in health care paradigms which is needed to create change in how we as a society do things. Indigenous students need ways and means to gain knowledge to be at the decision-making tables to give ‘voice’. to their concerns. We don’t know as yet if having more Asian Americans or Canadians at the top of the pyramid will help change our lives for the better or not. Will they do a better job than the current arbiters of our fate so far? Access (to power education) equals Power and the ability to address the power differentials in our society. If the ‘angry hands’ are the tip end of an educational system that has not given voice to Indigenous perspectives in the training of those who will be future policy makers, where else can we effect change? Everyone knows that the Halls of Power in DC and elsewhere are littered with those who have degrees from these top tier institutions, sometimes having the URM voice in the room is our chance at changing the perspectives of those future lawmakers, politicians etc. Many URMs don’t have the vision to understand what is at stake when embarking on their education journey and do not have the money for such specialized HS education that accepts these students (Enhanced summer programs, extraordinary ECs), so we are disadvantaged when we look at the common app and see all the fields to be filled! We just wanted to get through HS in decent shape. To whip them for it when they do get a chance to be in the room is tragic and reflects poorly on the privileged. That jaundiced look of, “you are not worthy to be here” " I have worked harder than you to be here" and those assumptions that their life experiences have equal value is spit upon. I have 3 sons who I am training to attain a chance to be in the room with such students, so they can make connections and be the new movers and shakers of their times. I don’t think AA is a bad thing since the racism experienced today is still putting peoples lives at risk. If you see a URM at these Higher Education sites, don’t resent them for trying to be at those important decision-making tables. If it takes a little longer to get there, don’t scoff at them and say they didn’t deserve to be in the same room as those who graduate faster! Be Kind!

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4876

So in your view, SFFA is trying to “keep African-Americans as a pariah”, and this is shown by their not doing enough work against racism in areas unrelated to “fair admissions”, their stated mission according to their organization’s name.

This seems a bit crazy to me, but then I realized it is an expression of Kendi’s idea, that one is either racist or anti-racist. You find that they aren’t anti-racist enough, therefore they’re racist and working to “keep African-Americans as a pariah”.

I understand, but I completely reject this way of thinking, along with most of what I’ve heard from Kendi.

4877

Quite honestly from what I’ve heard of the treatment of the indigenous in Canada, your society has a lot to atone for. That doesn’t necessarily mean others in other societies have as much to atone for.

4878

if they still have identifying features, basically. that’s it. which is messed up.

i’m half-chinese, so is my sister, but no one is going to label her as asian or even a mix because everything about her looks european except for the shape of her eyes.

i look considerably more chinese, so people look at me and label me half-asian

the truth is neither of us has spent more than a month in asia ever, we don’t speak mandarin or cantonese, and we don’t eat our mom’s favorite foods - except for ramen and boba - just like every other american eats it

4879

standardized test scores and gpa are the only factors in college admissions that can be objectively measured

that’s why everyone, regardless of whether they are talking about the role of race in college admissions or something else, use stats like the sat score and gpa to compare students and student bodies

i think that you are saying african-americans as a whole (because we are looking at demographics) have experienced more extracurriculars, are better essay writers, interview-givers, and have shorter rap sheets than asians and asian-americans

i’ll give you extracurriculars, african-americans do dominate large portions of sports

how likely is that - that an entire demographic of people (and only that demographic) have significantly worse speaking, writing, and reasoning skills than what they have been tested for?

it doesn’t make any sense that an entire group of people who don’t even know each other have managed to FAKE being smarter over the span of decades

the debate now is whether there is a different and better something in those essays and life stories that universities see from african-american people as a group

and that IS likely

have african-americans more so than any other ethnicity in the US overcome more hardship in their life? many people would say yes

if the college admissions committee decides for each individual person whether they have overcome hardship and gained some experience in their life - it is likely that many african-americans have

and that quality is valuable, extremely valuable - perseverance is a much better indicator of success than intelligence

however: and this is what makes many people angry -

affirmative action is not related at all to the selection priorities i said above

affirmative action aims to “balance out” the ethnic proportions of a college’s student body

colleges are attempting to accept more african-americans for the sake of educating more african-americans

and they do this by discrimination
it’s racism, no if’s and’s or but’s about it - there is no other way to achieve that goal while keeping the college the same

the aim is not to find smarter or more hardworking students, it is just to find more of a certain ethnicity

an african-american with the exact same application, the exact same interview, essay, extracurriculars, sat & gpa, is more likely to get in than an asian with that application

the little box you check when applying matters - quite a bit

as a result, asian-americans have to study harder and be even better to get in than anyone else (and i’m just using these two groups because they are at opposite ends of the sat score spectrum, obviously all other ethnicities fall somewhere on the advantage/disadvantage)

that’s not fair, obviously

but life’s not fair.

i actually am not sure where i stand on whether affirmative action is a good or bad policy - is it ethically correct? if it isn’t ethically correct, is it still better for a society? a large part of being american is living in a place with lots of different culture, and these cultures do sometimes cause differences in subjective “success” - is attempting to have the same level of education in every culture just making everyone the same? how have certain people’s historical disadvantage affected their success today? i’d honestly love to debate more, even more i would love to get into the college of my dreams and take an ethics class from the professor on madam secretary except he’s an actor in real life (darn)

i personally would be disadvantaged by affirmative action, but i am wayyyy over privileged in pretty much everything else

this turned into me debating with myself in my head but i’m gonna post it anyways

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4880

Of course this a gross distortion of the position, but you be you.

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4882

In 2013, of the 240,000 black students who took the test, how many could afford to take a prep course? How did college admissions survive before the SAT and ACT? Why did colleges begin using the ACT and SAT in college admissions? Maybe we should go back to relying on GPA, extracurriculars and recommendation letters?

4883

You are responding to a poster last seen in 2016 . You should not expect a response. This thread is pretty much inactive now.

4884

I know. Can’t help myself, sometimes.

4885

Here: https://twitter.com/SCOTUSblog/status/1485621994691383302?cxt=HHwWjMCygajV_p0pAAAA

4886

Should be interesting. Here’s a few articles, not sure how long this thread will stay open, but the one and only CC race in college admissions thread is closed IIRC.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/us-supreme-court-hear-challenge-race-conscious-college-admissions-2022-01-24/