"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

Well, so does not addressing legacy/development and athletic preferences at elite schools. If you think of them, and AA, as “places taken away from more deserving students” , at most schools that # is a LOT more than AA.

But admissions preferences for the fast rower from Choate or the great LAX player from Fieldston or the kid whose parent owns Humungo Corp or whatever are different. It may be that middle class kids look forward to being in college with those who have a higher social status so don’t mind spots set aside for lower (academically) achieving kids, but DO mind spots being set aside for those lower down on the social hierarchy.

Maybe not here (can’t remember for sure, haven’t been here long enough anyway…)? but I have heard many, many complaints from all these supposedly supremely “talented” stem male victims of sex-parity-AA-efforts. As usual, these characters think so much of themselves and their superior “talents” that they even write manifestos! filled with cherry picked data . These complaints/rants/manifestos are just as ugly or uglier than those against URMs.

But addressing @Much2learn question, my opinion is that the lawyers behind these lawsuits know full well that adding women to the mix would be suicidal for their case. The comparatively easier fight against URMs have brought them how many loses in how many years?

Edit: and ^^great points @OHMomof2 !

“As usual, these characters think so much of themselves and their superior “talents” that they even write manifestos! filled with cherry picked data .”

Apart from the Google engineer, do you have any other evidence of these manifestos from white or Asian males? The Google memo was disturbing I agree.

…or legacies, development or athletic admits, etc. I don’t think any of these lawsuits challenge the notion of holistic admissions as it applies to those cases. Only to affirmative action.

Sometimes, being the beneficiary of something often seen as unearned can result in social stigma from others, although even just the appearance of benefiting can result in that social stigma even if you did not actually benefit. For example, if you are hired into a company where you are related to a high ranking executive, you may be seen as a “nepotism hire” rather than one who was hired on your own merit (even if you actually were hired on your own merit).

@theloniusmonk I didn’t say that white and Asians men were writing manifestos. I also used the term manifesto rather loosely (not even sure if that google guy called his memo a manifesto? but was referring to him obviously). Anyone can dig up tons of serious sounding (but silly) writings on this topic by looking around the internet. It’s nothing new, old debunked ideas that should have died already but keep resurfacing on this day and age. Many/most of those putting them forward are surely envious losers with little intelligence (and big egos, bad combo…). That said from time to time someone with credentials steps forward and says/writes some stupidity, I remember a Nobel prize winner doing this a couple years ago?. Sadly putting women down in science is not yet a thing of the past.

@notigering “But addressing @Much2learn question, my opinion is that the lawyers behind these lawsuits know full well that adding women to the mix would be suicidal for their case. The comparatively easier fight against URMs have brought them how many loses in how many years?”

That may be true.

The courts have always taken the approach that if people don’t like what a private organization does, they don’t have to apply. Not a fan of xyz church? Fine, then don’t go there. Don’t like the men only private golf club? Fine, don’t go there. Don’t like that the KKK is whites only? Don’t join.

I just can’t see how the court would begin to wade into telling private organizations what they can and can’t do in admissions. For example, the simplest solution would be to say colleges can only consider academic factors in admissions. Doing that would wipe out NCAA sports over night.

Oddly, a lot of the same people who want to strike affirmative action have defended private golf clubs that are almost all white, and almost all male.

^Do you know of any private golf club that has taken federal funding? and can you name a single person in the news past or present who has defended a public funded golf club that is all white all male?
Isnt it ironic that the same people who think the private golf clubs cannot have their own policies believe private universities who are governed by the federal codes because of public money should be left alone for their own policies.

^ the “takes federal funding” argument is the go-to.

It’s why some religious colleges or those like Grove City and Hillsdale do not let students take any federal financial aid (and presumably they decline federal research funding as well) - so they don’t have to give gay students equal protection, deal with rape stuff, report racial %ages and whatever else the federal government requires of them if they do. Some take the money and ask for exemptions from Title IX regulations - a lot of them, actually. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-controversial-reason-some-religious-colleges-forgo-federal-funding/490253/

If the law of the land changed so they couldn’t consider race as a factor I don’t know what they’d do. Harvard and the other very wealthy universities and colleges could decide to decline federal funding. I’m sure they can - they’re in a better position to do that than the schools that currently opt out of federal funding. I’m also sure they’d rather not.

“Harvard and the other very wealthy universities and colleges could decide to decline federal funding. I’m sure they can - they’re in a better position to do that than the schools that currently opt out of federal funding.”
@OHMomof2 seriously? If you have been reading the news you know that is not an option. Basically, Harvard has billions of dollars a year research funding at stake. Even if it decides it no longer wants to be premier research university it cannot afford to be branded with the same moral outcast like those small religious schools.

As I said

…but if they did such a thing you bet they’d do it as a group.

More likely they’d find a way to build the classes they want regardless.

“If the law of the land changed so they couldn’t consider race as a factor”

You couldn’t have a law I don’t think (i.e. legislation passed by Congress) it would have to be a supreme court kind of thing like it’s been in the past, where the court says race/ethnicty cannot be considered at all and to do so would be unconstitutional. And I tend to agree that no college, including Harvard, would want to be on the wrong side of the supreme court, which of course would mean they’d be in contempt.

@notigering: " of stem male victims, as usual, these characters think so much of themselves and their superior “talents” that they even write manifestos! filled with cherry picked data ."

@notigering: “I didn’t say that white and Asians men were writing manifestos.”

You’re a walking contradiction.

That’s what I said @theloniusmonk .

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlevi

This very long thread seems to argue for GPA and test scores being the sole factors in college admissions, even if few say so literally or others say that they do not believe that at all (note: I am speaking about those who decry the consideration of one’s background in admissions). For instance, jzducol (2017) says that this is not true and posits that ECs could be considered but with racial information redacted (p. 52), but this is not practical. Moreover, the focus on race is oddly singular. Why just racial information? Why not redact all personal information that might give someone an edge in the application process? Pointing to the thread’s title is an evasion, not an answer, to the question, why just race?

The only way to bring about the perfect meritocracy that jzducol and others desire is to make GPA and test scores the sole determiners in college admissions, as these are only two elements that, arguably, do not reveal one’s personal background. I do not want this. Hardly anyone wants this.

If not, then the current holistic admissions process would have to become entirely “blind." Students’ names would have to be replaced with numbers (because one could glean not only gender, but perhaps cultural background, from a last name or even a first name). Gender would have to be eliminated (no men or women, just “people” as applicants). Letters of recommendation? Nope, not unless the recommender is given strict instructions to use gender-neutral pronouns and not reveal any details that could hint at race, culture, gender, religion, age, disability, marital status, pregnancy status, sexual orientation, and so on. Extracurriculars and community involvement? Nope. Same reason. Again, jzducol would say to let all this be submitted but redact any and all information that reveals race (why just race, again, puzzles me), but doing so would A) be a headache, B) please very few people except those like jzducol (who can send his child to Hillsdale if he so wishes), and C) produce a folder of admissions documents for each student that looks like an NSA file!

Oh: be careful what you wish for. Colleges want true diversity, but for some, diversity is mistakenly read as a liberal euphemism for “race” or “gender” or “sexual orientation." Colleges want truly diverse student bodies. Race is certainly part of that, but so is geographic diversity, socioeconomic diversity, cultural diversity, and diversity in terms of one’s family’s college-attending background. I know. All of this has already been raised, and, yes, I am aware in advance that I am not offering any new content and that I won’t convince a single conservative soul! But as an example, if an applicant is a straight white male from Wyoming, he’ll already be attractive as a candidate to a selective school based on geography alone. Add more hooks, such as that student being a first-generation college enrollee, or someone who writes an amazing essay about working on a ranch, and guess what? That applicant, even if his GPA is a “sub-par” 3.8, or his SAT scores are an “average” 2300, or has a “mediocre” ACT composite of 34, will become drool-worthy to admissions committees at many elite colleges. I doubt those who complain about unfair advantages given to URMs would complain about this hypothetical student, though I do not at all doubt that some—to save face and to double-down—would disingenuously suggest that, no, not even this student, even if it were his own son, should receive this “special” consideration. Uh-huh.

Some will say that I am folding in other issues (this thread is about race in college admissions, after all) that they have no problem with, such as giving some consideration to first-generation college students, or taking into account geographic diversity, or considering one’s holistic profile…but only if racial information is redacted! But why just racial information? Yes, the thread is titled “Race in College Admissions,” but that’s not an answer. Why should a first-gen receive “special” treatment? Why should a student from Idaho receive “special” treatment because she/he lives in one great American state over another? Isn’t that biased against those living in states more often represented on college campuses? I mean, what did the fine U.S. residents of NY, or MA, or CA do wrong to have the admissions process so work against them? Is it fair for their children to be penalized? Shouldn’t those who subscribe to the conservative ideal of equality for all reject all biases equally? Their obsession with just one bias–race–is disturbingly revealing. Pointing to the thread’s title, again, is an evasion, not an answer.

Thus, the only way to eliminate all special consideration—for URMs, women applying to STEM programs/schools, LGTBQ members, straight white men from Wyoming who can rope cattle, first-timers in the family who are going off to college, those clever and special-privilege-wanting residents of the Gem State!—is to reduce all to GPA and test scores. No one wants that. No one believes in that. Not even the meritocracy crowd. But there you have it. Sigh.

Whether or not that is desirable, admissions by GPA (and/or rank) and test scores without subjectively graded criteria is commonly done at moderately selective universities, presumably because they are effective differentiators between applicants when the applicants are not mostly pressed up against the top end of the scale.

“This very long thread seems to argue for GPA and test scores being the sole factors in college admissions,”

“This very long thread seems to argue for GPA and test scores being the sole factors in college admissions,”

Sorry hit post too soon, 90% of admission decisions are based just on these two. As ucb hinted at, non-selective and moderately selective will use a formula of gpa and test score to base most of their admission decisions on. The highly selective will also use them to weed out the first 20-25% of the applicants. There have been a few studies showing that test scores are the biggest predictor of admissions for selective colleges, but of course not 100% correlation.

UC system schools have not joined the common app which asks detailed racial information and neither have UC schools require letter of recommendation from teachers. As such, the schools manage to redact as much racial and personal info as possible during the admission process, and AOs are instructed not to consider race as a factor in their decision. Is it perfect? No, but it gives closest version of a holistic process based on meritocracy as Ca voters could hope for. Those who argue any holistic process taking out race would be unworkable simply have to look at schools like UC system.
@Hapworth “…very few people except those like jzducol (who can send his child to Hillsdale if he so wishes)…” you seem to be more interested engaging in personal attacks than a fact based discussion.
I know you have many supporters on this forum, but I hope most posters will rise above that.

They do ask on the UC application.

So do the CSUs (and in a very detailed manner, see https://www.calstate.edu/sas/documents/applicationform-undergraduate.pdf ) even though admission at the CSUs (except CPSLO) is just GPA and test score based within buckets defined by campus, major, state residency, and local area residency.

Simply because a college asks for that information does not necessarily mean that it uses it in admissions.