"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

If you have a Black, Latino, female top student nationally who is finishing their Junior year of high school, I strongly recommend that you consider the MIT WTP and MITES summer programs. These programs are rigorous, and are nationally recognized by college admissions committees and their graduates have been extremely successful in college admissions and careers.

What MIT is doing with WTP is different from most summer programs. Instead of seeking students who are already headed for engineering careers, they are specifically trying to identify the best students nationally who are currently headed in a different direction (medical, business, liberal arts etc.) and trying to reroute these talented students to engineering.

Application for WTP is due by January 15th. I don’t know about MITES, but I believe it is later.

WTP: Women’s Technology Program. The goal is to increase the percentage of women in engineering. Families with an income of less than $90K attend this program for free and the program is subsidized heavily for all students. Students have no prior coursework in engineering. Students spend a month studying math, computer science, and electrical engineering daily.

MITES: Minority Introduction to Engineering and Science. Another program with the goal of having under-represented groups the opportunities in engineering and science. Targets URM students, but I don’t have direct knowledge fo the details. I believe it is free, if you are admitted, but you would need to confirm that.

Note: I’m borrowing from @hebegebe and adding information.

I read somewhere that the best predictor of your kid doing well academically was NOT that the parents read a lot of books (or sending kids to private high schools) but they just have a lot of books at home. I always had a lot of books I never read spread around our house. lol

In fact, SatchelISF is merely trying to present the hereditarian point of view as the scientific consensus. However this is not true. Sure, there are well-known psychometrics specialists who believe and advocate that group differences in IQ result from innate, genetic differences. But this point of view is far from being unanimous, once one looks beyond cherry-picked studies.
In fact, there are just as many, if not more, scientists who firmly believe that the aforementioned differences are explained entirely by the environment : https://nyuscholars.nyu.edu/en/publications/group-differences-in-iq-are-best-understood-as-environmental-in-o
I don’t think scholars as Nisbett or Flynn should be dismissed and regarded as less respectable than their hereditarian peers.

The closest thing to a scientific consensus is still the 1995 statement of the APA, in Intelligence, knowns and unknowns which, by no means, states that group differences are explained by genitics :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence:_Knowns_and_Unknowns

@Bartleby789 - No question, I am clearly and firmly in the camp of the hereditarians, when examining group differences in IQ and intelligence. I have looked at the evidence, and have satisfied myself that there is no other reasonable explanation. There is zero doubt of course that intelligence is highly heritable (adoption and twin studies conducted over the past 70 years have confirmed this fact beyond any doubt). There is also zero doubt whatsoever that we observe large group differences in cognitive abilities, that these differences have been stable across time (at least 100 years of testing with literally millions of observations) and that they are observable over the entire world.

As for whether the view that group differences are themselves heritable is unanimous, well, of course not. There will always be scientists on all sides of any issue, especially one that is as politically charged as this one. Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority of scientists who specialize in intelligence testing adhere to a largely hereditarian view, although many non-specialists (e.g. Stephen Jay Gould) take the alternate view and are invariably celebrated by the media. In any event, even if this was not the case that specialists adhere to the hereditarian view, we shouldn’t be persuaded by a simple vote of scientists. There were times when the overwhelming majority of scientists thought the earth was the center of the universe and that disease was caused by evil spirits. We should always, and only, be persuaded by evidence.

We don’t have to settle these questions on a forum. For those who are interested in the topic, I have recommended a number of sources throughout this thread. If you are particularly interested in the scientific evidence of group differences, I would recommend reading all these peer-reviewed articles (some of which are vehemently pro-environmental and anti-hereditarian), which were written in 2005 to update all the research that had been conducted over the prior 40 years or so: https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/

The authors also touch on some of the thorny moral issues on why we should care about the answer to this question (and, no, no scientist is working in this area to justify “racism” or “oppression” - those silly sorts of ad hominem arguments are just meant to deflect).

If that is too many pages to read, and frankly for most who purport to care it will nevertheless be too many, I would urge reading just the short Gottfredson article in that collection, which does a nice job of summarizing and presenting the data: http://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2005hereditarian-hypothesis.pdf

Also, the article cited by @Bartleby789 (Nisbett, Flynn, et al.) does not stand for the broad, sweeping conclusion posited by @Bartleby789 . It is an exceedingly short article that only seeks to quibble with characterizations of school NAEP achievement tests, and of course does not really get to the question of intelligence (or even its best measurement IQ). You can read the full text here: http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/Articles%20for%20Online%20CV/Nisbett%20%282012%29%20Group.pdf

The Flynn Effect, which has been noted as a secular rise (in all groups) of IQ over time, is an interesting one. Some of the articles I referenced above discuss it, as of the state of knowledge in 2005. There has been some more recent, better research showing how it is largely a function of “teaching to the test,” and in any event is not observed on the more g-loaded measures of intelligence within the standard IQ battery. For instance, take a look here: http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Armstrong-Woodley-2014.pdf

By the way, the lead author of that piece, at the time of writing, was fifteen years old. If that fact alone does not convince people of the heritability of intelligence, I don’t know what will!

Personally, I think the data used by Nisbett, Flynn et al. should be treated with some caution. They do show some narrowing of the achievement gap between Blacks and Whites in the United States, as measured by year end achievement tests, but in my opinion much of this may be attributable to the secular trend of tying teacher pay and retention to narrowing of gaps, which has led to (1) widespread “teaching to the test” and (2) clear pressure on the teachers themselves to cheat (e.g., the widespread scandals in Atlanta and Baltimore in which the teachers falsified the test results - undoubtedly these were not the only instances). Importantly, IQ testing is not routinely done for children any more, and in fact in some large states (e.g., California since the mid-70s) it is illegal to IQ test Black children (and so testing has been discontinued for all groups). Nevertheless, we still do have data from the Armed Forces, which administers a thinly-disguised IQ test known as the AFQT to all potential recruits.

It is also useful to note - and directly relevant to this thread topic - that on more g-loaded achievement tests, like the SAT, there has been no narrowing of gaps within the United States (approximately 1 SD). Moreover, as task complexity grows, these gaps also seem to grow (so, on tougher tests like the LSAT, GRE and MCAT, the gaps are larger, just as predicted by hereditarian g-theory), even though environmental differences are decreasing (with increasing years of education). As I mentioned upthread, the SAT scores of Blacks from families earning more than $200,000 per year are lower than those of Whites from families earning less than $30,000. There is no possible possible environmental factor that can account for such a large gap.

I am not going to delve too much on that subject here but I have a few points to make.

First of all, I don’t know why you are talking about the heritability of intelligence. You seem to be confusing two different questions : on the one hand, the genetic causes of within groups differences, which is largely uncontroversial and on the other hand, the causes of between groups differences, which is a far more controversial issue. I have never denied that intelligent was heritable. But this has nothing to do with between group differences being genetic. Even the Bell Curve stated carefully this distinction. This distinction is also emphasized in the APA’s 1995 statement.

As for differences in IQ accross the World, I suppose that you are refering to Lynn and Vanhanen. However their conclusions have been challenged on numerous counts : from methodological errors such as using outdated data, to fundamental issues like the relevance of IQ test in completely different cultures. A highly critical review has for example been written in Nature : https://www.nature.com/articles/6800418. Once again, you present as uncontroversial, questions which are still at the heart of heated debates.

The 2005 article you claim to be the state of the knowledge at that time, is in fact a summary of the heriditarian position, written by Lynn and Rushton which ignores blatanly evidences of environmental factors. You can take Nisbell and al. study with caution, just as I am wary of the works of Lynn and Rushton. I could go on about Rushton who was highly controversial figure and believed that Blacks’ IQ was inversely proportional to the size of their reproductive organs : https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jean-philippe-rushton. Still, Nisbett, Flynn or Diane Halpern are highly regarded psychologists and their work is as respectable as that of Jensen, Lynn, Rusthon or other hereditarians. And they are not “non-specialists” like Stephen J. Gould, they are professional psychologists and specialists of psychometrics. Diane Halpern, for example, is a former president of the APA.

In fact the 2012 article of Nisbett and al. was written as a an answer to the 2005 article you are mentioning. Several of the points made in 2012 have been restated recently after the controversy surrounding Charles Murray’s speech at Middleburry : https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/6/15/15797120/race-black-white-iq-response-critics.

But your claim that the overwhelming majority of scientists adhere to the hereditarian view is unsubstantified, if not false. Obviously, if the only respectable scientists according to you are the signatories of the Mainstream of Intelligence, then sure. By the way, even Gotfredson in the Mainstream of Intelligence stopped short of claiming that group differences stem from genetic causes. To claim that the hereditarian view is the view of the overwhelming majority of scholars is more than dubious. As I have already said the consensus is still defined by the APA statement which is far more nuanced than the thesis you are defending.

As for the evidences, there are evidences from both sides. It is easy to try to prove a point by overlooking any evidence which contradicts it.

Lastly, about the fact that Blacks from high income families score lower than Whites from low income families, much has already been said but to claim that environmental factors cannot explain this situation is a rather bold statement. One could, for example, point out the fact that even high income Black families are still more likely than Whites to leave in deprived neighbourhoods : https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/milwaukee-segregation-wealthy-black-families.html. Cultural explanations have also been discussed by John Ogbu : https://www.unc.edu/courses/2006fall/educ/645/001/Fordham-Ogbu.pdf. In fact, the very data you are quoting come from an article of the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education which, unsurprisingly, highlights several environmental reasons to explain this gap : http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

You can believe whatever you want. All I have stressed is that, unlike what you seemed to claim, the debate is far from being settled.

Oh and I one more point.

I am not going to spark a debate about the moral implications of research on intelligence. Personally, I think that science should not be curtailed by the fear of going against the mainstream. However, to claim that no scientist is working on those questions to justify racism or oppression is once again a questionable statement.

First of all, many of the research supporting the hereditarian point of view have been funded by the Pioneer fund which is widely regarded as a white supremacist, racist organization with nazi roots : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Fund#cite_note-35.

Besides, many of the leading hereditarian scientists have had close ties with white supremacist groups, be it the late Rushton or Lynn who has succeeded him as the head of the Pioneer Fund. See for example : https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/richard-lynn or https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/garrett-hardin.

None of this means that their work should be outrightly dismissed as propaganda but it helps to put it into perspective.

I will not be derailing this thread further from its original intent. I don’t think this is the place for such a debate.

Well, @Bartleby789, for sure we can agree to disagree! As you might expect, I am not going to be impressed with pieces from Vox, the NY Times, the Southern Poverty Law Center, Wikipedia, etc. I prefer to see peer-reviewed academic work.

Just a few notes. I am not confused about the heritability of individual intelligence versus the existence of innate group differences. It’s just that the prevailing academic paradigm for understanding whether group differences are genetic or environmental has been the view that group differences, to the extent that they represent real differences, are agglomerations of individual differences (which are known to be heritable, at roughly r = 0.75). In fact, those articles I cited to specifically discuss this paradigm.

Hopefully, these questions of nature versus nurture will be settled within our lifetimes. Current research is progressing into the identification of specific genes and gene expressions (alleles) that are correlated with intelligence. Ditto for the direct measurement of physical neurobiological processes, which seem to differ among the races. (Most of this research is being conducted in China because the US political atmosphere is too poisoned - the 2017 Haier “Neuroscience of Intelligence” book is worthwhile for an insight into the current state of the art.)

About your sources, most of the criticism against hereditarian positions obviously has great support in popular media, and so finds ready support from academics who wish to avoid controversy and/or curry favor. There’s no need to go through this history exhaustively here. For readers who do want to venture into the literature, I would suggest paying close attention to how culture-only and other predominately environmentalist approaches deal with observed differences (by race) of biological measures known to be correlated (from weakly to strongly) with intelligence. For instance, cerebral glucose uptake rates, brain volume (observed even at birth), inspection/reaction times, cortical thickness and measures of brain processing speed, to say nothing of the many other observed biological correlates (gestation time, maturation time, gracility, etc., most of which are admittedly only weakly or moderately correlated with intelligence). I have looked long and hard, and have never seen any environmentalist address any of these issues, other than to ignore them or outright lie about what the research has shown (as did Stephen Jay Gould in his “Mismeasure of Man”). I have also never seen any environmentalist address known genetic phenomena such as regression to the mean, observed in between group pairs of siblings when matched for intelligence (their siblings, in turn, demonstrate regression to the mean as expected, but towards different group means).

As for the persistent trope that all this research is based on “white supremacist” thinking (or somehow supported by it), again I have not seen anyone making such a claim address the fact that every mainstream hereditarian (of whom I am aware) acknowledges that on practically all measures (including IQ and intelligence), East Asians are “superior” to Whites (and I put that in quotes because we are more properly talking of differences, not superiority or inferiority). For instance, mean IQ is higher in East Asians, brain volume is greater, maturation and gestation times are longer, cerebral glucose uptake rates are lower (higher IQ is associated with lower energy usage), etc. It is hard to see why white supremacists would support and fund research that shows Whites to be “inferior.” As in the biological correlates questions, I have not seen any cogent analysis from the culture only group. Perhaps the Southern Poverty Law Center has some insight? As I mentioned upthread somewhere, nature does not care if it does not conform with what we think it ought to be; it just is.

Is this discussion really out of place here? I would think that an understanding of these issues - or at least an honest attempt to grapple with them - would at the very least be central to any discussion of affirmative action or other race preferences in college admissions, no?

First of all, I have not quoted the New York Times and the SPL to argue points about the scientific view on the controversy : I do not think there are peer-reviewed research on whether the Pioneer Fund is a white supremacist organization. Obviously you are free to dismiss “mainstream” media or the SPL as biased but they still are widely regarded as trusted sources.

To go back to the point of heritability of intelligence. The fact that individual differences in intelligence stem mainly from genetic causes does not imply that this is also true for group differences. This is a confusion that many proponents of the hereditarian thesis make. In fact, it is the very point challenged by the article by Nisbett and al…

Once again, Nisbett, Turckheimer, Flynn or Halpern are not the mainstream media. They are leading researchers in the field of the intelligence. To claim that all the proponents of environmental explanations are just non-specialists like Stephen Jay Gould, whom you keep mentioning although I have never refered to the Mismeasure of Man, is simply false. Again, you are free to believe that their hereditarian colleagues are more convincing but that’s your opinion. As to the point such as the regression toward the mean, it is a postulate made by Jensen and which is not as substantified or researched as the other points made by hereditarians. Yet, there are many aspects heriditarians have never or only very rarely addressed as the fact there is no correlation between White ancestry as evidenced by blood groups and higher IQ in African Americans or the very fact that despite decades of research, even the most powerful genetic studies such as GWAS studies have yet to find genes that can explain a significant part of the variation in intelligence, although some progress has been achieved recently. Thus, because of the shortcomings of genetics in the current state of sciences, the evidences of hereditarians have always been circumstancial or indirect. All the hereditarian points that you mention such as brain size or reaction time have been challenged on numerous counts for example in the article by Nisbett and al. I have linked :https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/amp-67-2-130.pdf

As for your next point about the links between hereditarians and white supremacy, the fact that some hereditarians (in fact mostly Jensen and Rushton) believe that East Asian have higher IQ on average than Whites does not rule out that they may be pursuing a white supremacist agenda. First of all, the gap between East Asian and Whites according to hereditarians is much smaller than the gap between Whites and Blacks (between 1/10th and 1/3th of a SD depending on the studies), thus the stakes are very different. Secondly, most hereditarians think that the relatively higher overall IQ of East Asians stems from their advantage over Whites in performance IQ but Whites are still ahead in Verbal IQ (Lynn). Some of them have even claimed that Verbal IQ is a best predictor of economic success than performance IQ. Thus the hereditarian hypothesis is very attractive to white supremacists. All the more so as, as I have pointed out in my previous messages, some hereditarians have openly espoused their cause like J.P. Rushton. Once gain, you are free to dismiss the SPL etc. but I regard it as a reliable source on extremist groups. Besides none of this means that hereditarian’s work is mere propaganda. Yet those facts cannot be ignored in such a controversial field of study.

I do not think that this debate is that relevant in such a setting : those are very complex questions on which eminent scholars have been disagreeing for decades and with, as I have stated, evidences from both sides although as the American Psychological Association has stressed, there are even less clues supporting a hereditarian view than an environmental one. Besides one does not even need to be convinced by the hereditarian hypothesis to be opposed to Affirmative action. Conversely some hereditarians such as Sandra Scarr, a signatory of the Mainstream on Intelligence, contend that those findings have no bearing on political choice or could even justify AA : https://www.samtiden.com/tbc/las_artikel.php?id=72.

All in all, I am not trying to impose my views on anybody although I believe that environmental causes are the most probable explanation. I have merely pointed out that the claim often made by hereditarians that they have science on their side whereas their opponents are either lay liberals or left-wing propagandists who dismiss any reference to IQ, heritability and intelligence is simply false.

Thanks, @Bartleby789 . Unlike the Scrivener, you have engaged in this back and forth without a hint of “I’d prefer not to” and many of your points are well taken and have given me some additional sources to look at.

This will be my last post on this particular back and forth, and again I would encourage people reading this exchange to explore the source material itself and make a judgment as to which side has the better argument. It is worth noting in that exploration that no hereditarian makes the argument that intelligence is 100% genetic - every researcher allows for the existence of environmental factors that influence intelligence. Some researchers (e.g., Haier) do believe that intelligence is 100% biological and (perhaps) 100% expressed through genetic factors, but they note that there are complex interactions between genes and environmental factors at various stages of life (epigenetics, for those who are interested).

By contrast, environmentalists must make the difficult claim that intelligence is 100% environmental, in effect that observed group differences are “recreated” each succeeding generation, and hence the search is on for what environmental factors are causing those differences. The stakes are high because, and here I am revealing my own bias, if group differences are environmental we as a society need to focus on narrowing group differences, rather than on optimizing education and intelligence at the individual level (to the extent that we can enhance intelligence through environmental factors - and remember, no hereditarian disputes the existence of such factors). In addition, the stakes are also high for lower-performing groups as well. If genetic factors are important in intelligence, then an emphasis on equalizing environments will actually lead to a widening of, at least, achievement gaps, and perhaps of intelligence gaps themselves (to the extent that intelligence can be altered by environmental effects). This widening will occur because as environmental conditions are equalized, non-environmental (i.e., genetic) factors will predominate. There is some evidence that this is exactly what is happening, and it is directly contrary to the political agenda of the IQ environmentalists.

As for a few specific points brought up. I have seen much of the data presented in the linked Nisbett, et al. article (much is quite old and has been presented in, for instance, Hunt’s textbook “Intelligence”), but I haven’t seen them neatly pulled together in one spot, so thanks! Not to belabor the point, but it is instructive regarding how these debates go to examine how Nisbett “refutes” brain size correlations, as argued by @Bartleby789. He simply ducks the question with the statement that there has been no new “probative” evidence and cites to two of his earlier works. One of those is what I linked to upthread, and here is his “discussion” in there:

“The rest of Rushton and Jensen’s (2005) article consists of reports of brain
size and reaction time correlates and other indirect evidence. If the direct evidence
were not so strongly supportive of a purely environmental explanation of the
Black–White difference in IQ, then such findings would have relevance to an
understanding of the difference. But when direct evidence points so clearly to the
conclusion that there is no hereditary basis for the difference, indirect correlational
evidence has little meaning.”

http://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Nisbett-commentary-on-30years.pdf

Note that the correlations for brain size, variously given as 0.4 (Jensen) or as low at 0.32 (Nisbett) are in fact moderately strong evidence. In fact, the entire argument of the environmentalists ultimately rests on some combination of SES variables, which even though always confounded with intelligence, still typically only show correlations of less than 0.4 with intelligence. Reaction time correlations are even higher. Environmentalists simply pick and choose what evidence supports their political agenda.

(The other work cited by Nisbett is one of his books, which not surprisingly was released in 2009 to rapturous praise by the NY Times, among others. For a review of the book’s many deficiencies, see http://laplab.ucsd.edu/articles2/Lee2010.pdf )

Last (I promise), @Bartleby789 argues that the acknowledgement that East Asian mean IQ is higher than Whites is not inconsistent with a “white supremacist agenda” because the difference is only between 1/10 and 1/3 of a standard deviation. Well, in the very first Jensen article I linked to (section 3, p. 240), the standard deviation is given as 4/10 (106 vs. 100, SD of 15; 6/15 = 0.40), so you really don’t have to look very far to see hereditarians positing higher numbers! Moreover, most hereditarians (e.g., Jensen, Rushton, Gottfredson, Harpending, Cochran, Hernstein, Murray and about a dozen others) have no issue noting that Ashkenazi Jews have mean IQ fully one standard deviation above Whites as a group, which is approximately the same size as the Black-White gap. Again, this acknowledgement is difficult to reconcile with a “white supremacist agenda” - perhaps even more difficult than the noted Black-White gap! As you get into the literature, you will find a great deal of implicit name calling by one particular side.

Anyway, this is a fascinating area to explore, much richer than the popular media would have you believe. The policy implications for affirmative action or other “compensatory” programs are not dictated by whether you adhere to a hereditarian view or a 100% environmental view. Personally, I believe that we need to move past recrimination and the belief that any time one group performs better or worse it is somehow the “fault” of another group or of “society.” Such a view is incredibly damaging both to society as a whole, as well as to the very groups that are purportedly being helped.

This will be my last post as well.

But I have several points to make before moving on.

Regarding the first point, again, proponents of environmental causes do not deny that intelligence is largely influenced by genes. The controversial question is about the causes of group differences. And regarding this issue the closest thing to a consensus is still, more than 20 years later, the statement of the American Psychological Association :

“Several culturally based explanations of the Black/White IQ differential have been proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available.”

It is interesting to point out that the task force was made up of hereditarian as well as environmentalist proponents.

On the arguments made by Nisbett and al. about the evidences of hereditarians. Well, you are free to view them as unconvincing but I will disagree : none of the evidences about brain size, reaction time etc. is compelling enough to settle the debate, in the face of the challenges made by environmentalists. But anyway, it proves that your claim tha environmentalists had never addressed those points is simply false.
You point out that much of the research in Nisbett and al. is old but the same could be said about the article of Lynn and Rushton, which is fact 7 years older (2002). It is funny that you talk about environmentalists cherry-picking their data when this is exactly what hereditarians have often been doing by pushing aside any study or interpretation which may contradict their thesis.

Regarding the gap between East Asians and Whites, indeed Jensen has claimed the gap to be as large as 2/5 of a SD. However this number has been challenged by Flynn : Jensen did not take into account several factors such as the fact that the IQ tests he relied on were outdated. Jensen himself has acknowledged the validity of the points made by Flynn.

https://books.google.fr/books/about/Asian_Americans.html?id=H1lC6Dff8y8C&redir_esc=y.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.392.8169&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Regarding the purported high IQ of Askhenazi Jewish, it is another very controversial and quite complex subject. But one doesn’t need to be very familiar with white supremacist literature to find out that this is very much in line with antisemitic claims such as the conspiracy theories. Furthermore, in the American context, white supremacy has historically been about, first and foremost, asserting the innate intellectual inferiority of Blacks which is perfectly in line with the hereditarian thesis.

To conclude, once again, my goal was to debunk a claim which is often made on the Internet and which states that science is on the side of hereditarians whereas environmentalists are just as deluded as creationists. The reality is much more complex and nuanced.

Asian-Americans are discriminated against in elite US universities. There are several active lawsuits. Colleges use “wholistic admissions” to discriminate against S. Koreans, Chines-Americans and Japanese-A,mericans. I know it sounds crazy – all these smart admissions people putting vastly different individuals in one “group” for the purpose of rejecting their applications to elite USA colleges. It is morally wrong, but they don’t care. Do the best you can. Fight for your rights. You will prevail on the end.

Personally, I am not opposed to race no longer being considered in admissions. But then, all other forms of preference/affirmative action have to be done away with as well, be it legacy-based or gender-based (just ask MIT for the latter).

On my common app I put that I am biracial: Black and Asain. When I submit this to colleges, would they consider me as a Black applicant or an Asain applicant? I understand that race does play a factor and your stats should be great regardless, but I really don’t want to pick one race over the other. Would I be at a disadvantage because I put Asain too, or would they consider me as Black applicant instead? Or is it a combination of both?

They would see you as both, but colleges that consider it will not generally say publicly how or how much it matters. (At some colleges, it does not matter at all.)

Well, I’m not sure exactly how colleges will view bi-racial, but one thing I am sure of, Asian is not going to help! They face the toughest odds everywhere. If it were me, I’d just put down Black.

I would think the Black will help more than the Asian will hurt. If you truly identify as both, then that’s what you need to put. My gut is you will be treated as a URM not an ORM. But I really don’t know for sure.

Thanks, everybody. And oops in the original post I wrote Asain I mean Asian.

Bart789 The success of Ashkenazi Jews is a fact not opinion. People can find support for almost any argument but one finds himself/herself in a very weak position to assert that intelligence does not have a very large inheritable genetic component. This issue is settled science with reams and reams of longitudinal decades long identical twin studies to provide clear proof. Aside from all the scientific literature it strains credibility to believe that all other traits are clearly heritable such as eye color, height, athletic ability , body build etc etc but that the most important human trait is not. So then human evolution is not subject to natural selection? Are you really taking that position?

I agree intelligence is inherited, but I also think that the brain is capable of changing and evolving once you are born. I remember reading an article years ago that said the human brain is underused and capable of so much more than even the most intelligent people use it for…something like (and these numbers are probably wrong but they were extreme) even the most intelligent people only use 16% of what their brains are capable of knowing/storing/reasoning, etc.

So with that said I think it’s both nature and nurture. There are varying degrees of intelligence across people of different backgrounds but that doesn’t mean a person from, let’s say for argument’s sake, “lesser” intelligent ethnic group is not capable of reaching higher levels of intelligence by exercising his/her brain more than maybe his/her traditional peers do, or even people from the “more” intelligent ethnic group.

So unlike eye color, the capacity of one’s brain and therefore, intelligence, might be something that external factors can influence. Just like some people might be born with weaker immune systems or organs…doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to die earlier than someone born more “healthy”.

I realize I came into this conversation late and might be off topic but I thought it was a point worth making.