I don’t have an example for physics, but I do have an example from another STEM class… My African-American kids are 2 years apart and took AP Computer Science together when my daughter was a senior. During a parent-teacher conference during the school year, the teacher pulled me to the side and shared that he had never seen anyone code like my daughter in 10 years of teaching the class, especially as she was learning how to code in the class for the 1st time. He mentioned her problem solving and said she went down avenues that others students never even considered. I honestly think that her uniqueness in AP CS may have partially been gender based (about 85% of all of the students at her school who take AP CS are male), but she has also always had a particular gift to see patterns quickly and from the most unique point of view. She is now at a top 15 USNWR Grad school in her chosen STEM discipline and that unique point of view helped her stand out over and over during undergrad (Also took 1 semester of CS in college from a Google employee on loan and he asked her over and over to apply for a Google internship within his department which she politely declined).
So I do believe in diversity of all types (thought, worldview, experiences, etc.) in educational spaces and in the world in general. My daughter gained a world view watching a good friend speak Mandurian as a young girl (that has turned into a life long love of languages), learning how to make a dish from another friend’s parent from Ghana, or some of the many other awesome experiences she enjoyed in our diverse community. Do you really think that diversity has no benefit at all? I ask that as a Black man who has had real reservations about the way that affirmative action has been “deployed” in higher education because I believe that the negatives of the policy are not worth it and that it is not helping the people who need it most (low SES).
One benefit for the minority student can be sense of belonging or fitting it,. For example, there was a study I’ve previously referenced that looked at attrition in physics / engineering / econ majors at Duke. After full controls for similar application ratings, HS background, harshness of grading, … the strongest predictor of dropping out of the physics / … major was being female. I expect the lack of female representation in the classes, among professors, and generally in the field contributes to this attrition. This also fits with why the relative male/female attrition rate can vary widely at different colleges, and the difference between male/female attrition tends to be smaller at colleges with better gender balance within the major.
A similar idea seems to occur for race. For example, Caltech is known for having high admission standards without affirmative action, which contributes to admitting few black students. In the most recent iPEDS year, there were 0 Black women in the freshman class. The average is <1 Black women per class.
One might think that while there are few Black students at Caltech, the ones who are admitted are all highly qualified, so they have as good a chance of being successful as students from other races and a better chance than at colleges that practice AA. Yet the opposite seems to occur. Caltech has an especially large gap between the average graduation rate of Black students and other races. It hasn’t happened in a awhile, but in some years their Black graduation rate has been 0%. Other similarly selective private colleges almost always have a smaller average gap in graduation rate. I suspect the lack of representation and feeling of fitting in contributes to this relatively low rate of academic success among Black students at Caltech.
There is a trickle down effect that continues after graduation. Fewer minority physics grads, leads to fewer minority physics employees, fewer minority teachers/professors teaching future generations, etc.
I don’t mean to imply AA is good or bad… only that increased diversity in the classroom can have positive effects for some students.
This brings up another type of forum example. To some, the politics of racism (or anti-LGBTQ+, etc.) are just politics. But, to others, such politics, if dominant in the college, local area, or state government, can have a negative effect on quality of life for the student at the college.
As such politics have become more prominent, it is not surprising that there has been an increasing divergence in forum posters’ views about colleges in some parts of the country where those kinds of politics are seen as more dominant.
Here’s a different type of example. In a racist world (say, America pre-1960s), the perspectives of physicists like Raman and Bose might not have been welcome in certain classrooms, because physicists of that skin color may not have been welcome in the classroom. (I chose those examples only because I know them off the top of my head; I’m not a physicist and I don’t know the time period of those two particular scientists so maybe it’s a weird choice, sorry). That’s a loss to physics, academically. We don’t know how much more advanced the field of physics might have been if there had never been racial discrimination (or imperialism, or whatever…); we in fact don’t know how many potential brilliant physicists have been silenced or even killed because of their skin color (anywhere in the world).
Fast forward to now. Are we truly in a post-racism world? My answer is no.
Is affirmative action a tool that’s moving us towards a post-racist world? There is evidence it is, and other evidence that maybe not as much as people think it is. I believe in the former. If you are willing to acknowledge that the former may be correct, then diversity — even when it’s “forced” by affirmative action — has the explicit potential of improving the academics of physics, by working against the silencing of physicists based on their skin color.
Many of the greatest advances in physics were made in Europe about a century ago, a period without much racial diversity there. In fact, many of the contributions were made by a single race, the European Jews.
Also, we aren’t taking into account the potential benefits to members of that particular community from which the kid comes. We are assuming the benefit should only be to the other kids in the classroom while not speaking of the potential benefits to, say, younger kids being inspired by someone from their community going to a place like Harvard and serving as a role model. There are too few role models in many disadvantaged communities. In the case of the Physics example, maybe that URM then decides to become a teacher or engages the old community in some meaningful way. As an African American, it is exhausting enough, and to have the burden of educating others about the merits of diversity is above my pay grade.
The benefit of diversity of thought is to reduce the risk of groupthink. The irony is that there is this groupthink that diversity in everything is necessary and more diversity in anything is always better than less. That diversity in something is good for something doesn’t necessarily mean that diversity in everything is good for everything. That some diversity is good doesn’t necessarily mean more diversity is always better than less (e.g. your stock portfolio).
There is value to diverse opinion in the study of law, politics, policy, history, economics, literature etc. To additionally claim that racial diversity is helpful in studying Math or Physics in college is a stretch. If someone makes that argument, it won’t be taken seriously. Moreover, people will argue that particular claim and move on, without feeling the need to address all the other areas where diversity has some value.
If your daughter is exceptionally good at coding, we can just say that she is exceptionally good at coding, or in her chosen field of STEM. And that field is fortunate to have her. To then attribute her excellence to her race does her disservice.
You are making the case to not be racist. No one is arguing that case. Are you making the case that you need more Indians in science just because we need more Indians in science? I would argue against that logic. We need the best people in science. I would rather be taught by an excellent african american professor of quantum mechanics than by a mediocre Indian professor or quantum mechanics. Any day.
If you are saying people like to be taught by other people of the same ethnicity, I would say that is a problem situation.
Imagine how you’d react if an orm student says that she doesn’t want to be taught by an urm professor because a) she doesn’t understand the accent, or b) finds the professor incompetent, or c) whatever. You’d probably throw her out of the university.
Likewise … you can’t custom order departments of professor of your ethnicity.
I will claim that the country is being racist toward Asians. No one is addressing this issue. Both in academia and in employment. If we are proposing solutions, we should solve everybody’s problems. Not just the problems of one or two ethnic groups.
I never attributed her CS gifts to her race (but I did mention her gender being a possible factor which is still another point for diversity in a male dominated field like CS). I believe the diversity of her friends has played a big part in why she is so curious, because she has seen the world through their eyes. You are stuck on race, but diversity comes in many forms, my friend.
The current lawsuit is about race. And the top of the head of this thread reads “Race in College Applications …”
My point remains – don’t undersell her accomplishments. She is an accomplished young lady. Women can and do get into college without any help from preferences. Indeed men need the preferences. At the high school level I think women perform better than men. So where is the need to prefer them some more?
In my earlier post, I was saying that when female students have professors of the same gender, it increases chances of persisting in fields where females are in a small minority, such as physics.
The first study that came up in a Google search is at https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26822/w26822.pdf . The study looks at female students majoring in STEM fields at USAFA. The found that after full controls the top quartile scoring female students were far more likely than male students to switch to a non-STEM field. They were also less likely to have a STEM career post-graduation. However, they found that among this group the drop out rate was well correlated with the portion of female professors. Having less than 1 SD more female professors was enough to negate this effect and increase female STEM graduation rate to more than male. It had similar effects on portion pursuing STEM master’s degree and STEM careers post graduation.
The study does not explore much in to the reasons why this effect exists. It could be that it helps to have role models/mentors of the same demographic group. It could be that some professors tend to favor students of their own demographic or discriminate against persons of other demographic groups. It could be classmates are more likely to make it an unpleasant experience for perceived minority groups when the professor is in the majority group. There are many possibilities. The author writes,
"Future research might fruitfully explore why professor gender appears to be such an important determinant of choosing STEM majors and occupations. While gender-based teaching styles may affect student academic performance, the post-graduation effects we find are consistent with the argument that female professors serve as lifelong role models whose influence extends well past graduation, and suggest that interventions aimed at encouraging the to interact and mentor their female students could, over time, substantially narrow the STEM gender gap. "
But the many arguments in both cases revolve around the diversity gained by using Affirmative Action. There are many schools who use preferences for women, for men, and in some cases by major. Do you consider that wrong? That is why diversity must be talked about. Is diversity (of race) enough of a factor to continue using Affirmative Action in college admissions?
I have said on this thread years ago that I thought that State schools would lose eventually due to the 14th amendment and that even private schools would have to rework there admissions policies in the near future. Part of my thinking on this subject is a very simple thought exercise. 100 years from now, I believe that the use of Affirmative Action will be looked at as a heavy handed attempt by our country to right past wrongs, but goes to far at the expense of another minority group (Asian-Americans). There are wrongs that have still not been righted for African-Americans, but I believe the real answer is in fixing our K-12 schools so that the educational playing field is eventually equalized so that African Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics are at the same level as White Americans and Asian Americans. There are maybe 10,000-15,000 African American students attending schools that use Affirmative Action in admissions, but for the ~400,000 other African American HS graduates each year, most are attending inferior schools nationwide.
Everyone has a different viewpoint on this, and no one’s is entirely valid or invalid. But as an Asian with fully Asian kids, I’ve tried to teach them that the fact that they have a harder time getting into Ivies is not at the same scale of “problem” as the centuries-long violent disenfranchisement of American Blacks and Indigenous People, and that the violent disenfranchisement continues to this day. Does affirmative action solve police shootings? Maybe you think the answer is no, but to me the answer is an indirect strong maybe at least, though it obviously takes time.
Is there American racism against Asians? Yes, and it’s often violent. But in my opinion it isn’t my kids getting rejection letters…
A lot of Asians are used to this state of affairs. People feel squeezed. There is some level of resignation. Parents tell kids from a very young age that unless you are at the very top of the class in many different aspects (not just academics) you have no hope. Even now, no one has any hopes that the SC setting aside current practice will make any difference in the opportunities Asian Americans have in college admissions of their choice on a level playing field. Partly because they as a group are not politically active. They give their vote without expecting any movement on this issue. So it is what it is. Often people are amused at all of the arguments made in favor of the status quo.
This is an interesting statement. I’d say it doesn’t describe myself, my family, and many of the GenXers I went to college with. Some are household names. On both sides of the aisle.