<p>My son took quite a few AP classes (7 in all) and managed to get mostly 5s, a few 4s and one 3. He went into college with 24 credit hours. </p>
<p>Here’s my beef with AP courses. The actual AP courses are not equivalent across all schools. Some (like my son’s) restrict access to them based upon grades, admission tests and recommendations from teachers…in these cases, the students tend to perform very well on the AP tests. Other schools allow all comers…a friend’s daughter took AP World History in tenth grade and with an A in the class couldn’t pass the AP exam. In fact, no one in the class did. </p>
<p>So, is an AP class really a * college level course * and if so, if the student can’t pass the ‘final exam’, shouldn’t that be a red flag?</p>
<p>If our kids are so advanced they have to take college level courses in hs (my son took nothing but AP courses senior year) perhaps we need to reevaluate what constitutes a high school education. Perhaps some kids need to be in college by 11th or 12th grade. Just as there is a bell curve for IQ, some kids are ready for a more advanced curriculum at an earlier age but not every one is - there should be some sort of criteria for allowing kids to take AP classes. A lot of public schools like to brag about how a majority of their students take AP courses—but can’t pass the exam and can’t manage to get more than a 1000 on the SAT. Something about this is very wrong.</p>
<p>I don’t think the bar should be lowered for advanced students but AP courses are now being watered down to the point that they often mean nothing and colleges recognize this.</p>
<p>Either it’s a college level course or it’s not. If not, just call them advanced study classes and do away with the whole AP exam charade.</p>
<p>I strongly believe in my children taking AP classes since they are in public schools. For us it has been the best way to prepare them for the rigors of college. </p>
<p>My son took 7 AP courses and so far he is doing fine his first year of college. My daughter will probably take 9it AP courses by her choice. She loves her classes, her teachers and her peers. She loves being challenged in school. </p>
<p>Each family needs to determine what is best for their own children. In our situation, it makes sense.</p>
yes, it should. For the teacher, the school and school system, and all future students. As another parent said, if it is known that students do not do well in classes, students stop signing up for the class. </p>
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<p>Yea, this is happening. Schools are too worried about denying a child the opportunity to try an AP class. Regardless of their ability to do it. But there is no college that I have found at all that will accept any score of 1 or 2 as college credit. Even community colleges require 3 or better for credit. So the colleges figure out what is what with those programs pretty fast.</p>
<p>But that is the only “beauty” of AP classes…If the concept is for the kids to learn prescripted information the tests reflects what the kids have retained from the lectures. Not the “ideal” way to teach or even necessarily the best way to prepare kids for college where you’ve often required to take learned information and use or apply it in a different way. No wonder we have some shell shocked college freshman walking around who "don’t “get what their prof wants.” They spent four years cramming info into their heads to take tests on exactly what they crammed into their heads. I’m grateful our school doesn’t have a ton of AP classes, I’d far prefer my kids stretch their minds in a different way. My kids spent a good deal of time on their backs at night for an astrology class where they discussed mythology, evolution, navigation and a host of other things and writing papers…not memorizing constellations for a multiple choice test. There are some really bright kids that have a difficult time with this class. My #3 told me the class average on the last paper was a 73. How do you apply the theory of this kind of teaching to the AP brand standards? You don’t. My kids take some AP, too, just not a steady diet of AP.</p>
<p>While our school has fairly strict pre-requisites for AP and has only one AP that sophs are allowed to take, I really don’t have a problem with anyone wanting to try a class to try a class. The structure of AP, the necessity of covering the material in a fixed amount of time and the necessity of covering all the info by the time of time test doesn’t allow for a whole lot of “dumbing” down of the class. It is entirely possible that a kid who scores a 1 or 2 actually learned more in that AP class than they would have in a different class. So they don’t get “college credit”…that’s not the reason kids should take AP classes. I really doubt the college “cares” whether it’s a good or bad AP class. I didn’t care one whit whether the college even accepted the credit…if they did it was a mulligan. Many colleges bought into the concept of “giving” credit for those College Board AP classes so they also drank the Kool Aid.</p>
<p>They have actual national standards that are significantly more rigorous and more uniform than typical state and local standards in the US.</p>
<p>In theory, there is no reason why this could not be done in the US (and AP put back to its original purpose). But since it has not happened (while AP expanded into a limited substitute for the absent rigorous national standards), it does not seem like it would happen if AP were abolished. Not to mention the politics that creeps into K-12 course content (e.g. whether biology courses can teach anything about evolution or left/right wing views of US history) that would greatly interfere with setting a national standard from the government.</p>
<p>However, some students who are academically ready for college level work may not be socially or otherwise ready for college (especially “going away” to a residential college, but there would also be issues at a community college or local commuter university). Others may be ready for college level work in some subjects but not others.</p>
<p>But the AP program was developed precisely for the purpose of granting college credit and exempting out of introductory college classes…</p>
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<p>To say that now it really doesn’t matter indicates that the AP program has, in fact, been watered down. Offered all the advanced classes you want…just don’t try to pass them off as AP classes.</p>
<p>So some of the AP courses my son has taken have been deeper, have taught him writing and application skills of info learned, and really provided some of his most interesting experiences. The majority have had very hard tests, and made the students responsible for learning the info. A few have been terrible, literally teaching to the test, and making no bones about it. One actually did his own thing, ignored the test standards, and no one scored higher than a 4 on the AP exam. I don’t know what you all think these kids are going to encounter in college, but from my experience in college, and from what I hear from current college kids, that is EXACTLY what prof’s are going to be like in college for our kids. </p>
<p>Profs will be:
Unpredicitable
inconsistent
some hard, some easier
some want students to apply knowledge, some want students to regurgitate knowledge
some will be unfair
some won’t care
some will only teach 1/2 the content, and the other 1/2 will be the students responsibility to figure out</p>
<p>Watering down of AP courses seems to be the norm. Consider the following:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Forcing two year ahead students in math to take calculus over two years instead of one.</p></li>
<li><p>Having many AP courses take a whole year when they are (at best) given a semester of placement and/or credit (if any at all), often for courses that are not considered difficult by college standards (statistics, environmental science, psychology, microeconomics, macroeconomics, computer science A, human geography, etc.).</p></li>
</ul>
<p>This idea is ridiculous. Clearly, these people are so distanced from what high school reality is like. As a high school senior, I have been able to take 10.5 just fine. The only problem I have had is not having good time management skills, and I think this is the problem for everyone. If one can have that, than they can have a good social life, play a sport, and be a top student all at the same time. However, removing AP classes will not solve this problem, and I think it will make it worse.</p>
<p>As I can see it, the vast majority of high schoolers are NOT overstressed by their activities in any meaningful form. Even as someone who has top-notch ECs, I have felt very little pressure from anyone to need to succeed, besides myself. However, as someone from a very affluent public school, I see the vast majority of my peers not doing anything meaningful at all, much less be pressured by what they’re doing. </p>
<p>I’d say the same goes for grades. People say that they care so much but end up slacking off and being on Facebook all the time. (Like me) But in the end, we need classes that are decently challenging. Honors classes are a joke and filled with kids that simply aren’t productive to a positive learning environment for me. You simply can’t believe the hype about a need to the end of tracking. There are kids taking Algebra II and Calculus BC in the same grade as me. It is a joke to think that there can be one class that can teach all of them adequately.</p>
<p>And let’s face it, most kids are actually not dealing with selective college admissions. The average graduating high schooler is either going to an open-enrollment community college or a 4-year commuter campus that is just about as open. Even at much of the top 200 universities, you still barely need a pulse to get in. The whole concern about selective colleges only applies to a bunch of mostly-white, upper-middle class kids who mostly lack realistic expectations about their college admissions. Do you want to know why selective colleges have such low rates? It is because kids who have a 29 on their ACT and a 3.5 GPA and mediocre ECs think they can get into Vanderbilt or Chicago.</p>
<p>Sorry for the ramble. I hope I made my point clear.</p>
<p>^ Probably the most reasonable point in this thread. As a current high school senior, I can say from experience that limiting course rigor does nothing other then bore top students and encourage laziness. Last year, I had four AP classes. That left me with so much free time I self-studied another five and ultimately earned 5’s on every exam (and this was with 40 hours per week of extracurriculars and a job). The AP curriculum enforces a basic standard of proficiency to ensure people are actually learning something - a standard considerably higher then the jokes that pass as state-mandated graduation tests. I would be ready to shoot myself out of boredom if I could only take 2 APs at a time.</p>
<p>If anything, AP tests need to be harder - there’s no reason I should be able to teach myself AP calculus in three weeks, or European History in two weeks, and earn a 5 on the exam. The only potential threat I see from massive expansion of the AP program is a tendency to dumb down the curricula.</p>
<p>Well, that has already happened. I agree that fewer APs which are truly college level would make more sense. Many of the current AP courses would actually make decent high school level courses, though whether high schools would actually offer them without the incentive of an AP label is another question entirely.</p>
<p>Personally, I think that that the college board should make an entire series of nationally validated honors courses that are administered like APs are. They could move the easy APs to that program (things like Human Geography) while introducing new AP tests in things like organic chemistry and multivariable calculus/linear algebra.</p>
<p>The market is probably too small for the college sophomore level courses. Remember that they dropped computer science AB because too few students were taking it. There would also be the issue that few teachers at non-elite high schools would be willing to teach such courses. Community college is probably the best option for students reaching college sophomore level courses while still in high school.</p>
<p>At least for math, I’m not so sure. According to the AP data tables provided by the college board, around 85,000 students took the AP calculus BC exam last year, qualifying them for multivariable calculus. Based upon the individual state reports I have seen, roughly 20% of the students in calculus BC took it in their junior year or earlier, suggesting a market of roughly 17,000 students for a sophomore level math class - considerably larger then, say, AP Japanese, which only had around 2000 test takers last year.</p>
<p>Oh, and trust me - taking classes at a local university is a massive pain.</p>
<p>I’m happy that I chose a public HS that offers good quality AP classes, and the hard ones are easily college-level. My senior kid will wind up with about 10 APs. He’s a good student, and he really enjoys taking the challenging courses.</p>
<p>Also, my wallet will be happier if his college accepts the credits, and in fact that will be a consideration when analyzing costs this coming spring. It could make the difference in whether some schools become viable on a cost basis.</p>
<p>I suppose there are stressed out kids who are taking APs as part of some kind of “arms race”, but I don’t understand those families. Frankly, that’s not my concern - they’ll find some way to screw up with or without APs.</p>
<p>Some students need the advanced coursework; it’s no different than a kid with other kinds of special needs. It would be fairly annoying if the AP option wasn’t there for the kids who really need it. Schools can go cut somewhere else.</p>
<p>And LOL at the “mile wide and inch deep” comments … as if Psychology 101 at any university isn’t the largest cream puff in the bakery. At $55k/year, can we please skip the junk and move on to some real content?</p>
<p>Yes, it is good to hear from students who, like many of our kids, WANTED more challenge and were not overwhelmed by the work.</p>
<p>It’s bad enough that there is no tracking in elementary school. The better students are generally very happy when they get to HS school where they can be in classes that actually begin to move at a comparatively decent pace and where the other students are interested in actually learning something. My S was bored out of his mind in MS by enforced group projects with kids who were mostly interested in talking about their social lives, especially when it was something like a science project that was loaded up with a significant arts and crafts component, clearly intended to appeal to girls with no interest in science. (The boys with no interest in science tended not to be interested in the arts and crafts, either. Stereotypical, but true.)</p>
<p>Our HS had a year long Humanities class that was taught for years by the heads of the English and History departments, working as a team. A number of years ago, before S’s time, kids from the honors/AP path, to whom the seniors-only class was originally directed, actually got up a petition to complain that the class was being watered down because of the pressure to open it up to everyone. It remained a great and unique class in many ways, but S was mightily disappointed in the level of classroom discussion when they read philosophy and the like. (Admittedly, he was probably comparing it to CTY. ) If this course were an AP class, a certain level of rigor would have been enforced.</p>
<p>The CC here does not offer calculus, much less anything more advanced, and the student body is almost exclusively kids who could barely get through HS, much less hack an AP class, plus a contingent interested in their vocational programs. The nearest university mostly caters to the bottom third or so of students from local HSs, and arranging to take a class there is in any case virtually impossible unless the kid is homeschooled or takes an entire semester away from HS. It is not always possible for kids who need more challenge to find it outside of their HS. That population needs to be served by HSs just as much as the special needs population, and I find it enormously frustrating that the feel-good lobby continues to try to eliminate everything that even begins to serve them, from kindergarten on.</p>
Stereotypical, but true.)</p>