<p>Pizzagirl, arts folks would be up in arms if they did that. </p>
<p>I have to admit that those kids that self study AP courses outside of their school on top of AP courses at their school is a little much. I am sure those kids do nothing but study for AP’s. That is no life to have. </p>
<p>Last year, my son took 5 ap courses. He still had time to participate in sports, robotics, a job, and hang out with friends. AND did well on the exams. If he had to quit an activity he liked because of the rigor of the AP exams, we would have looked at decreasing the class load. I wanted him to enjoy his life AND his courses. But he and I both wanted him to have an education that meet his needs too. Sitting in school for 8 hours bored is nothing but trouble for a smart creative child. So there is a good balance that needs to be found. </p>
<p>Neither he or I have regrets about the number of AP’s he has/is taking. I think you will find this to be true of many parents/students that take ap’s.</p>
<p>I don’t think that it’s just the ‘gifted and talented’ students that are in APs. It’s pretty much anybody that wants to get the potential college credit.</p>
<p>At my kids’ HS, at least, I see no rhyme or reason about the criteria for an AP class. If a kid wants to take one, they can. The course itself is only about teaching to the the AP exam, just like all the other classes that teach to the other standardized tests. </p>
<p>It is true that they prepare you for a college course, but I don’t think they are by nature more intellectualy stimulating. They just cover more material. It’s pretty fast paced at our HS as they are on block system, so an entire AP class is covered in one semester.</p>
<p>I would much rather the school invest in more ‘practical’ courses than AP classes. For example, our new HS started an engineering program, which got cut. The AP calc class remains but the engineering program, both taught by the same Cal Poly grad, gets cut. It was in the engineering courses where my son was more intellectually challenged because he could get hands on, practical lessons. Yes, my son got a quarter of college credit and for AP Calc, but the engineering curricula was what ignited his passion.</p>
<p>I have mixed feelings about APs, but by and large they served my kids well. For the most part APs provide broad surveys of the field, and by and large I think that’s not a bad goal for an introductory course in a field. While most of the teachers did pay a fair amount of attention to the curriculum, the AP Euro teacher (who was wonderful), assigned any number of papers that bore no relation to the sorts of things that would be asked for on the AP test. He concentrated on making writers out of his students and that’s what came out of his class, and the kids did well on the test to boot. Calculus teachers taught their courses like college courses, they didn’t grade homework, they trusted the students to figure out how much homework they needed to do in order to understand the material. Both my kids had hours of free time every night. They were not working until the wee hours of the morning. (Except the nights before papers were do, and only because they are procrastinators.)</p>
<p>What I think many people forget when they say APs may not be good enough for universities like Caltech, is that that’s not surprising, APs are designed to be the equivalent of *average *college intro courses, not elite colleges intro courses. </p>
<p>I can understand that many colleges want to cover, what they want to cover in 1st year bio, for example, but since so many students have had AP why not design a 1st year course that is assumes that knowledge base and another for those who know nothing? My older so would have been driven crazy by repeating material.</p>
<p>In any event I think AP (and IB) provide a useful way for parents to be assured that there are courses that are taught at an appropriate level for bright students. (At least at schools were the students score well.)</p>
<p>When I went to high school, there were just two versions of many college-prep subjects, regular and honors, but the honors version was labeled as AP at the appropriate level or subject. 12th grade honors English was AP English Literature, and US history was available either in regular or AP. Students who got to calculus, or the fifth level of Spanish or French, took courses labeled as AP.</p>
<p>Basically, the AP courses were the natural follow-on to the honors sequence that many of the better students were taking in previous years.</p>
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<p>Well, that was the point – only at a few super-elite or specialty schools are AP tests useless for credit or placement (though these schools may have their own freshman placement tests that can allow freshmen to start in more advanced courses if they have sufficient preparation from previous course work). In most other schools (including HYMS…), AP tests are useful for either credit or placement, though not necessarily for all possible AP tests, and scores higher than 3 may be required.</p>
<p>Simply stated, all proposals to curb the importance placed on a large number of AP is very positive. </p>
<p>In fact, this discussion should not even been brought at the K-12 level. The (ab)users of the AP boondoggle that has been pushed relentlessly by The College Board should have the integrity to use the AP tests for what they were intended, and only for this purpose. AP should be used solely for Advanced Placement. Not for credit of any kind, and especially not for admissions purposes. </p>
<p>If colleges were to phase out credit by first limiting all AP credits to no more than 4 courses and then to a maximum of two from a VERY small number of choices, the entire impetus to collect a ridiculous number of AP would stop.</p>
<p>The development of the AP programs has brought any changes to our K-12 system. The attempt to bring a national curriculum by the College Board has only meant a financial windfall for the insiders and a tremendous amount of pressure to students. </p>
<p>Our high schools, be it public or private, would be much better served without having to waste resources on the AP program. It should come as no surprise that the most selective K-12 schools have reduced or eliminated the nefarious impact of an unending development of the AP.</p>
<p>Maybe that is true, but the most selective K-12 schools have guaranteed rigor in classes for students. Few of those schools have students that are picked up by the truant officer (or what ever they are called today) and brought to school each morning. In other words, the regular public school system.</p>
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<p>same could be said for many special ed programs. But, like GT programs, they are required by law.</p>
<p>I have to disagree with the opinion that AP classes are discounted at only very selective colleges. My sons not very selective college will only allow a limited number of AP’s to replace Gen ed credits, but not classes in his major or any in the core curriculum. They don’t even take AP English. Actually my kids, all B, B+ students, went to colleges that only accepted AP credits for scores of 4’s and 5’s. </p>
<p>I think our HS has a good policy with AP classes. Students must have an A in the prior regular class or a B+ in the prior honors class. Parents, and students sign a contract acknowledging the rigor of the class and promise to do the summer work. Just about all AP’s have summer reading and writing work. Freshman cannot take AP’s. Sophomores can take a limited amount and because we’re a smallish HS, with it’s own core curriculum that includes gym, drivers ed, etc - there simply isn’t room or availability in the schedule to take more then three each junior and senior year and even that would be difficult to fit. The really advanced students can go off campus and take college classes on site at nearby University’s their senior year. </p>
<p>AP’s are given a weight of 5, honors have a 4.5 and regular classes are 4.0.</p>
<p>Good luck convincing the public universities to do that. Public universities, under budgetary pressure, have plenty of incentive to give credit (as opposed to just placement) for AP tests, since doing so gets students graduated more quickly than they otherwise would (meaning fewer semesters of in-state subsidy spent on each in-state student).</p>
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<p>However, the typical high school (not a selective public magnet or private high school) would probably regress in the rigor of courses (and drop offering useful high school level courses like statistics) in the absence of AP. Yes, it is misuse of AP for it to become a de facto national standard college prep curriculum, but abolishing AP without putting something better in its place would not likely give good results at typical high schools.</p>
<p>very good point UCB…with schools having difficulty offering enough classes for students, accepting MORE AP credits is likely. Some students are required to be in college for 5 years because classes are not available.</p>
<p>What’s so bad about having a voluntary national standard aspirational curriculum? I tend to think it’s a good thing. I don’t necessarily love what College Board is doing with it. But I’ll take them any day over the people who would be serving the same function were it not for the College Board – namely, the Texas Board of Education and the Texas Legislature. Sorry, xiggi.</p>
<p>“I know there are challenging AP classes, and there are easy AP classes. The proposal doesn’t distinguish.” - Classic RockerD</p>
<p>I agree with ClassicRockerdad
not all AP classes are the same. They can vary widely dependant on the teacher. My DD loves some of them and not so much the others - usually because of the teacher.</p>
<p>If schools want to offer them and students want to take them . . . what’s the problem? If a particular child is “stressed” - don’t take them, but don’t limit the options of the kids who are happy and enriched.</p>
<p>if my school system were to discuss this, I would be up in arms. If they choose to put another program in place, and assure rigor that is RECOGNIZED BY ELITE COLLEGE ADMISSIONS programs, then they may be on to something. If they do NOT plan to provide classroom rigor through another program, it is their very obvious attempt to cut costs and effort. Those cuts will cost parents/students more in college tuition, and may handicap (or at least make students less marketable in) their admissions process to a number of upper level schools. </p>
<p>It will also affect their rating on a number of different sites that rate schools and school districts, and may ultimately lower property values because of it. OK, that may be a little dramatic, but the schools and what they offer are closely looked at by people moving into the community with school aged students. Maybe there is a realestate agent that can provide more insight into how it might affect your community? </p>
<p>Good luck with this, this discussion raises my blood pressure every time!</p>
<p>Are AP courses the only courses that represent “guaranteed rigor?” Again, many of the most selective high schools in the country would disagree.</p>
<p>I hope you do not intimate or speculate that I might be a supporter of the Texas organizations you listed. Regarding national standards, I doubt that you will find tremendous support for a curriculum abdicated to the College Board, or to … say the officials who get ideas or marching order from Seattle or a small town in Arkansas.</p>
<p>When D signed up to take an AP class as a sophomore we were warned that the homework would be about 2 hours every night. She never did anywhere near that for any of the AP classes that she took (got all A’s and passed all exams). Attends a university which is very selective and highly ranked (although a lot of people here hate it;) ) and will graduate in 3 1/2 years due to AP credits. It was well worth it for her.</p>
<p>While it could be factually correct in some cases, it remains that the real question should be how we allowed programs that are entirely forgettable and, with few exceptions, nothing more than a mile wide but an inch deep become a standard of rigor? </p>
<p>Is it really the best we could do? What do the countries do that appear to leave us the dust without APs?</p>
NO!! It is not the best we can do as a nation!! As a parent, I worked hard to supplement my students education outside of school, and set our own standards for learning. </p>
<p>As far as other countries, they have different priorities than the US has related to education. Longer days, longer week, longer school year. More depth to the studies, more homework. And they do have more rigor for math and sciences.</p>
<p>All I can say Xiggi is that my kids have really enjoyed them, mile wide, inch deep, whatever. They have all been taught by teachers who put in a lot of hard work and dedication to bring the material to life. The ones that didn’t have a good “rep”, my kids didn’t and won’t take. Could the current AP teachers come up with something better? They probably could, but why should they have to if they’ve managed to make something wonderful on top of the AP curriculum. </p>
<p>This whole topic came up so that the bar can be lowered so that kids don’t feel so much anxiety about having to compete. The movie didn’t give equal time to the kids who are enjoying themselves with AP classes and who don’t think about it as a competition. It’s a self-serving movie, not a study, though I’m sure there are plenty of miserable kids who crush themselves with academics and plenty of parents who want their kid to go to Harvard who instead of telling their kids to find a balance and do the best they can, push their kids too far and would just as soon limit how much OTHER kids can learn so that their kid doesn’t “get left behind” on the “race to nowhere”.</p>