<p>Interesting movie trailer. I will definitely NOT see the entire movie, however. Parents using the CC discussion have opened up my eyes to the race for the “best” college. It would be a lot nicer if the truly top kids could get those elite college spots instead of kids who have to work super hard to get the grades and test scores were pressured into doing so. I live in an area without intense academic pressures- more would have helped my gifted kid learn more and get better grades. </p>
<p>Maybe some parents need to accept that in today’s world there are more students (by the numbers and ability to go outside of one’s geographic/economic areas more easily) and the same number of spaces- little Johnny/Janie will not necessarily be competitive for the same school they went to decades ago. The students are displaced from the “lesser” colleges often should not be attending a 4 year college, but should be looking into technical training as they did decades ago.</p>
<p>I find many of the degree mills/for profit online colleges apalling (ad for one on my screen as I write- pet peeve is waiting for those ads to load before I can scroll the page). Most offer business degrees and I wonder about the quality- and the fees paid.</p>
<p>Don’t know where else this was posted today, bue we talked about this improtant film about 2 months ago in this thread <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1001642-waiting-superman-must-see-movie-all-discussions-7.html#post1065702743[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1001642-waiting-superman-must-see-movie-all-discussions-7.html#post1065702743</a> (see around post 279) This IS an important film, IMO. It would be a shame to get sidetracked in conversation about how often references to it were posted.</p>
<p>Just watched the preview, will not be seeing the film. It looks too one-sided for my taste. If a kid feels overwhelmed then opt out of an extra-curricular or take fewer AP classes. If this costs them a spot at some school then so be it, there will be other schools they can get into.</p>
<p>According to the preview we need to teach kids to think. Let’s start with having them think about whether the competition for the few spots at the few ultra-prestigious schools is worth it.</p>
<p>cross-posted with jym, if you think it is important then maybe I will see it.</p>
<p><< If a kid feels overwhelmed then opt out of an extra-curricular or take fewer AP classes.>></p>
<p>One of the points of the film, in its entirety, is that it’s not just the AP, Honors classes, which give rise to a generation of over-stressed, physically and mentally-ailing, college-bound kids, but that nothing, not even the “normal” level classes, is necessarily truly high school level, anymore.</p>
<p>I knew that something was terribly amiss when my daughter reported that her 3 summer school classes at Stanford–physiology, stat, and psych. 1–were easier and more relaxing than her high school classes.</p>
<p>N.B. This film is not to be confused with the “Superman” film–they are two separate entities.</p>
<p>And for the parents who are not made defensive by the nature of this film, I highly recommend Madeline Levine’s The Price of Privilege.</p>
<p>And, neurologically, no matter how brilliant the child, our children are not ready for certain mastery, as high schoolers, that they would otherwise be ready for 2, 3 years, later. I don’t know that it served my daughter to be using the same anatomy textbook, albeit a newer edition, which I used in medical school.</p>
<p>I haven’t seen the film, but this statement: </p>
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<p>just doesn’t seem to relate to the world I live in at all. My world isn’t filled with over-stressed, physically and mentally-ailing college-bound kids. Sure, they are stressed sometimes, especially around college admissions, which is stressful. But not so much about their courses. And, yes, many “normal” courses are not truly high school level anymore – they are middle-school level or below. Even at elite colleges, a good portion of the first-year curriculum seems to be devoted to remedial high school, and for the vast majority of college students in this country I’m not sure there is anything other than remedial high school going on, ever. THAT’s a problem.</p>
<p>AP courses? I have not seen a single one that resembles a decent college course. At best, they are challenging high school courses; at worst, they are pedestrian memorization-fests. Many great schools think they can do better, and do. But I just haven’t seen hordes of desperate kids being driven to ruin by heartless academic taskmasters. Nor was I satisfied that high school taught my kids (and other kids) basic skills adequately.</p>
<p>By pretty much every measure, average U.S. educational achievement is not up to par with the rest of the developed world. Now, some of those countries DO produce hordes of desperate, overstressed kids. But others don’t, and their kids still know more than ours do.</p>
<p>I watched the trailer and there are some valid points. Generally, measuring standards issued by the government have created too much emphesis on scores - which may devalue learning for the sake of learning, but not sure what the alternative should be.</p>
<p>However, I have a REAL problem with these the over-dramatization of the over-stressed teen. It is my job as a parent to make sure there is balance! Your child’s health is not worth the extra quality points. There are plenty of TOP schools. Just say NO! Maybe this is a regional thing, but my kids go to a very competitive high school that sends its students to many “top” universities. Top students are stressed…at times. But overall, there is a sense of perspective. Where are the ADULTS!</p>
<p>I saw “Waiting for Superman,” and I will probably see this film, as well, as the two films speak to two different, but real, aspects of current educational experiences in the United States. In the school my d (2012) attends, the general curriculum is watered down and mickey-mouse; many of the students at her school are at-risk kids, others are disengaged. At the upper end of the continuum, though, you have a relatively small cadre of students who are living life in a very demanding, high-pressured manner. Bright students may be taking AP calculus in the 8th or 9th grades, and then off to the community college or state college for math. A 9th grader taking geometry of algebra 2 feels stupid in comparison. </p>
<p>I had a number of conversations with older d (now in college) about balancing the amount of time in preprofessional activities with time to explore her interest in the performing arts. In a sense, she was lucky, because it is extremely difficult to take more than a total of 7 or 8 AP classes at that high school. Other than if they place at that level for math, sophomores are not allowed to take APs. (There are few honors options open though.) However, she did feel pressured to take the max, given that other students in other schools (more AP offerings, block schedules) were going to look more favorable to the colleges, potentially. She did get in to some very selective colleges, and loves the school she attends! Her love of learning remains intact, despite the scramble to maintain As and rack up APs and honors in high school. Her sister is an extremely creative, funny, insightful person whom I doubt would ever get straight As for even a single semester, unless she were in the general curriculum, in which case she likely would not be getting an adequate education. </p>
<p>She is at the lower end of the honors track (3.4 or 3.5 unweighted, but possibly lower if one were to only look at the academic classes.) She would like to attend a small, liberal arts college. If it is a private school, she may well get in, but if she does not qualify for substantial financial aid, we will not be able to send her. She often is more insightful than her sister with the high test scores. We will be looking at smaller public schools for her. And, I do wish that she could get a solid education, with less stress, and with her self-esteem intact. But, in the scheme of things, she will do fine. She is a sensible person, who realizes not everyone can be on the tippy top of every class. The kids who are in the lower-end of the general track at her school, or those who drop out, or those who join gangs… those are the kids our society most needs to help.</p>
<p>Can we as a country be competetive globally in terms of the education we provide, without creating meaningless stress for our kids? Can we have high expectations and teach our kids to work very hard, without creating a lifestyle and lifetime of meaningless busyness… going from one activity to another, just because that is what everyone does?
At the same time, can we make sure the kids from families with very limited income have access to some enrichment activities if these are not offered through school (sports, music, arts, theater, scouts, etc). I would love to think that these are challenges that can be met.</p>
<p>I enjoy documentaries especially about education. There needs to be discussion about what we can do better. But all the worrying about how our very fortunate, oh-so busy, can’t decide which EC to go to next, gotta get in an Ivy kids just doesn’t feel right to me.</p>
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<p>Completely agree. Let’s try to figure out how to give these kids a decent education and something that resembles a future when they start off with NO advantages; this is where the energy needs to be placed. IMHO.</p>
<p>Sadly, this race to nowhere begins at the moment the kids are born. Preschool at age 2? Are you kidding? Yet, it is available and routine in most homes in this area. Geez, my own little nephews and nieces go to pre-preschool and they’re not even 2! </p>
<p>As an elementary teacher, I see kids feel burned out by 2nd grade. Either the kids are “superstars” and “gifted” (girls) or they have a learning disability(boys). The expectations are well in advance of what they are really ready to learn. I may have had a really boring educational experience when I attended grammar school, without a gym or hot lunches, but I sure got a great foundation. That’s what we need to go back to.</p>
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Why, oh why, is your D taking three summer school classes at Stanford?? And you’re decrying the competition in HS??</p>
<p><<why, oh=“” why,=“” is=“” your=“” d=“” taking=“” three=“” summer=“” school=“” classes=“” at=“” stanford??=“” and=“” you’re=“” decrying=“” the=“” competition=“” in=“” hs??=“”>></why,></p>
<p>She wanted to take physiology and statistics in high school, but we thought it too burdening in connection with a senior year of Adv. Physics, Calc. BC, Spanish 5, AP World History, AP Art, and a class on The Southern Gothic Tradition in Literature–that, plus two sports and piano. There was nothing she was willing to give up. So, she (not we) decided that she would take some classes during the summer and have the added benefit of living away from home, in the dorms, and having that most coveted commodity for a teenager–INDEPENDENCE. She had a great and social time of it, and it helped her, also, sort out that she didn’t want to go to Stanford (even though it’s a great school).</p>
<p>And, to set the record straight, I am not so much decrying the competition in High school as I am decrying the level of rigor and expectation, starting as early as elementary school.</p>
<p>I know people have asked the question before but never saw what I thought was a good answer. How much of the rigor and expectations are attributable to the student, how much to the colleges and how much to the parents?</p>
<p>^^All three I think. My oldest two never, ever “talked” about this sort of stress and on CC both would be classified as smart slackers, but my third does. He is very competitive about his grades and does very well, but the other night my H and I told him how proud of him we were and he told us is was “ridiculous crazy” to get a 4.0 (our school doesn’t weight) and he “has to have a life, too.” I was dismayed that he was struggling to find balance and trying to figure out of it is the difference in high schools now compared to 6 years ago when the oldest was going through or if it was just the personality and friends that my number 3 has. I have heard him say to relatives, when asked where he wants to go to college, that he wants to go to a “better” college than his brothers. I never want the kids to feel that kind of stress. I know as an adult that it’s just not that important. I appreciate that there is more emphasis on getting good grades now compared to when my H and I were in high school but there are other aspects of the teen years that are equally important to developing into a well adjusted adult.</p>
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<p>Strongly disagree with. Has not been the experience of anyone I know at Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, for example.</p>
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<p>Strongly agree with. That’s why the Elites are not selecting from
“the vast majority of high school students in this country/”</p>
<p>That’s why they’re selecting from the vast minority of exceptional publics/magnets/charters + exceptional privates/prep schools/accelerated homeschool curricula + some overseas programs.</p>
<p>I hear you momofthreeboys. My kids also have very different temperaments. My daughter is highly motivated and driven and I found trying to hold her back from herself just made things worse. She is just one of those people who has a lot on her plate. My son is not driven like she is and that is fine. He’ll find his way.</p>
<p>For some kids the pressure in their lives is self imposed. Like the daughter that SWHarborfan describes, they are driven and want to do a lot and want to do it well and good for them. When the pressure gets to be too much is the time for them to learn to add some balance.</p>
<p>I have seen some situations where there is a sort of toxic combination of kid and parent psychology, and the kid gets driven nuts by it (although siblings may be fine). I had a friend like that growing up – his mother was pushing him all the time, and he let himself be pushed, and it killed both of them when he didn’t wind up on top of every pile. The mother became sort of a standard school joke. He had a sister two years younger who was my sister’s best friend. The sister just let most of it roll off her back, never felt much stress, and wound up performing better academically.</p>
<p>A few years ago I saw a similar situation with a family we knew. The faculty at the kids’ school was worried the oldest kid was going to harm herself when she didn’t get into any of the Ivies to which she had applied. I taught a class she was in, and she worked herself into a frenzy to produce not-quite-wonderful results, and you could see her teetering on the edge all the time. But this was a real anomaly, not the norm at all. Her teachers and counselor would have special meetings about how to deal with her parents. There was a massive, unsuccessful effort to get the parents to let her take a gap year between high school and college.</p>
<p>^^I think that is why it is helpful to have teacher perspective. It’s really difficult to gage our own child and how much stress they put on themselves. My son’s teachers have pointed out his “driven” nature ever since he was a little boy. He will always measure himself against whomever is the “best” whether it’s academics or sports. My oldest never, ever measured himself against anyone and set his own personal goals…albeit a notch below what he was capable of doing, but then exceeding his goal gave him self esteem and a sense of satisfaction. My middle likes to be a surpriser. Last year the kids talked their AP teacher into guessing what they’d get on the AP tests and when he got to my son he actually said “I have no idea you could get a 1, but then again you could get a 5.” I guess when I think about this film, I think it’s not only the schools or the parents, but to some extent it is the kids and their expectations for themselves or how they “view” themselves in the context of their peers…something that no doubt parents and teachers have influenced, but none the less inate to the kids. Unfortunately the part that either comes from our parental genetics or environment probably can’t be changed by the time the kids are in high school. All we can try and do is temper the situation. I feel the most for the kids with parents who except nothing less than perfection.</p>
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<p>I went to preschool at age 2. We played with blocks, learned colors and shapes, had books read to us, played with slides and drums and toy cars… It was fun and made me like the general idea of school. It was IN NO WAY stressful.</p>
<p>I’d love to see this movie; it seems really interesting.</p>
<p>Yes, kids who get involved in gangs have issues that ought to be sorted out. But just because there are worse problems doesn’t mean we should downplay the issue of school pressure. This drives some kids to suicide. And if we want our country to be successful/fulfill its promise/yadayadayada we should focus on the smartest, most devoted and creative kids, the ones who will be the leaders solving the problems. It’s probably more important for society to teach these kids well than to teach less talented students well.</p>
<p>Not very PC I know…</p>
<p>Both of our kids went to pre-school at 18 months for 1.5 hour a day, 2-3 days a week. Both my husband and I worked and we had full time nanny for them. It was better for them to go to pre-school few times a week to interact with other kids than be at home with our nanny full time. We didn’t believe in sending our kids to day care 5 days a week.</p>
<p>Our younger daughter is at a new school this year. Our condition for our kid to go to that school was for her to be in their IB program (she was accepted to 2 high schools). Since she didn’t have any history at that school, the head master called me to fore warn me about the program (maybe it would be over D2’s head). I told the head master to just put D2 in it. But when they called me wanting to put D2 in their high level math and science courses, I told them no because I felt it would unnecessarily stress D2 out.</p>