Rate the importance of employability

Parent Cafe
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<p>Perhaps I should clarify my position in light of this discussion and that I was quoted above. Yes, I said and do believe that the goal of going to college is to get an education. That has value in and of itself. An educated mind is priceless and is worthy whether one wants to work or not. Example: if one becomes a housewife, they may not need a college education to obtain that job but the education would be worth it for LIFE. Education, in my view, isn't just a means to getting jobs.</p>

<p>Did my kids consider the employabiiity quotient when selecting their colleges? No. They didn't look at the starting salaries of graduates or how many find work, or anything about the topic at all. It was not part of their selection criteria. </p>

<p>I read Mootmom's post above and I'd say both my kids' way of thinking about college were the same as her kids. </p>

<p>However, while they did not pick SPECIFIC colleges with respect to employability.....they decided to GO TO COLLEGE because they knew that by doing so, their opportunities for careers would be open. So, they care about getting a career eventually. Where they went to school didn't factor into that but their goal was to get educated for the experience itself AND so that they may eventually have careers that often either require an education (D1's choice of career...architecture... does require a certain degree and licensure...though she opted to start with a liberal arts degree), and in D2's choice of career (musical theater)...an education and training is beneficial though one could get work without it. D2 prefered to be educated in a general sense (the liberal arts component) and also for training in her chosen field. </p>

<p>By the way, I did not care what my kids majored in, only that it be something they wanted to study. If they entered undecided, that was fine too. If they wanted to major in something like English, classics, or art history, that would be fine as well.</p>

<p>But which college both girls picked wasn't about jobs. These general goals were applicable to any college on their list (the college had to have their chosen major). It wasn't like "if I pick X college (or even Y elite college), I'll have a chance at a job or even a better job." They have goals and careers in mind and know that going to college is a step in that direction toward their long term goals. Employability, however, was not a factor or motivator for choosing any PARTICULAR college on their list. Each school on their list could have the same potential to be a step toward their eventual career goals.</p>

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<p>In choosing colleges to apply TO, my daughter was a 1. In choosing the college to ATTEND, the number was probably a bit higher. Because my daughter wants to enter a field where there is no clear degree-track, it was important for her to complete her U-G education with minimal loans; she knows she'll be moving out of the midwest to either NYC or LA ($$$) and starting at the bottom of the job heap (-$$$). In addition, the availability of internships (read that as connections) is particularly important, so she selected her college based on the availability of existing internships and the school's support for creating her own internships.</p>

<p>My daughter's in the enviable (to me) position of attending a school that is committed to supporting her desire for a double major; a BA in music (her artistic/dreamer side fulfilled) and a BA in broadcasting with an emphasis in production (her pragmatic, I-don't-want-to-starve side). And if it's doable, she may minor in arts administration, completing the melding of her personality, ambitions, and education. </p>

<p>Ask me this time next year if any of this has changed...:)</p>

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<p>For us, since oldest son is interested in math/physics, it was probably a 3 or 4. Just in the sense that H and I feel that a degree in the physical sciences will lead to employment somewhere, although we're pretty sure he'll end up in graduate school for a long time. Because we are familiar with the engineering/high tech world, we felt confident that it would be possible for the investment to work out. On one hand, if he'd wanted to major in a humanities or SS, I may have been more hesitant, because it's harder for me to see a career path, but if he wanted to major in hum or SS, then a degree from a well-regarded school is probably even more important. I don't expect either kid to be rich, but I AM hoping for self-supporting someday!</p>

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<p>I can easily see my S becoming a professor someday, after years of wasting away as a grad student. Suggestions I made about 6 y programs for MD, MD/PhD tracks, were absolutely not in his range. Whether he pursues science, CS, or SS, the outcome in terms of employability and salary may all be the same.
S was focused on his interests thru HS, led him the MIT/Caltech route, and his interests probably continue to guide him. He's too young to absorb his mom's frustrations with a PhD and low-paying jobs.</p>

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<p>My kids picked majors that are perhaps more typically associated with pizza delivery careers -- Economics and Music. I said, "Oh no! S1 - econ and S2 - music - are forever going to be unemployed!" To which S2 responded, "Yeah, but at least S1 will know WHY!"</p>

<p>I majored in something extremely employable - that I hate. (Nursing.) So I was determined to let my kids follow their passions. We did decide upon good schools with the idea that if the major isn't particularly marketable, then perhaps the school should be. </p>

<p>So I guess with a major "marketability" of 1 or 2, and a "name brand" school of 9 or 10, we averaged about a 5? </p>

<p>I am comfortable with their choices, and if they end up at home for awhile, so be it. I'm not in any hurry to get rid of them. (But S1 is graduated, employed, and I'm not expecting him to come back any time soon!)</p>

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<p>Since none of my kids have any clue what they're going to do with their lives - including son #1, who will be graduating from college in two years - this subject has come up in our kitchen table discussions lately. My sons both recognize the "checklist" function of college - that is, people are going to expect you to be a college graduate (at least), so you need to complete that task as a prerequisite to doing other things you're going to want to do in life - whatever those things are going to be. They seem to feel that they should approach that experience with an eye to enjoying themselves in a variety of ways, as long as they can check off that item at the end of those four years. For some jobs and postgraduate professional schools it doesn't matter a whole lot what subject your undergraduate degree is in, or where you got it. I've encouraged them to think about what they enjoy studying, to look for an intellectual passion, but if nothing really grabs them now, well, that's okay, too. 18 or 20 is awfully young to have found your "life's work" - some do by then, most don't. Mine haven't. So it's a little premature to think about employability after college - they're still pretty much focused on the college experience itself. So call it a 1 here.</p>

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<p>When we were young and the cost of education was reasonable it made sense to use college to find yourself. If I remember correctly, my yearly tuition was about 3 times the cost of one month's dorm fees. So if the dorm were $800 a month, tuition for the year was $2400. Very reasonable. Now, tuition is so costly and grads often have loans to pay back, so it seems necessary to assume that while they are finding themselves they will also need to plan to make enough to pay off their loans, as well as support themselves in their adult lives.</p>

<p>As parents it's not just our job to raise our children and help them go to college (in terms of monetary and emotional support), we also need to teach them about the necessities of supporting themselves. If they can't even earn a living, they will never be self sufficient. I don't care how rich a family is, the job of a parent is not to keep paying the bills but to help them learn to take care of themselves.</p>

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<p>soozevt, I don't disagree with you. You would be surprised if you heard some of the conversations going on in our home about majors. I'm the one encouraging support of the arts, while the student is the one worried about careers. Even so, I tend to agree that a BA or BFA in the arts is not alone going to make someone employable. In arts, I see that an MFA is very important if one wants to work in the field. If we are talking about going on, I agree with you. I had to get an advanced degree before I was employable. I'm adament about this subject because I was a victim of thinking a BA from a respected school would be a job ticket and it wasn't.</p>

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<p>Despite the quote, I don't think I'm as dogmatic as I sounded. On the one hand I do believe education, not job preparation, is the primary goal of undergrad education. I HATE the thought of a kid majoring in "sports management" as someone I know's son is thinking of doing. OTOH, not all kids want to go on to grad or professional school - at least not right away. I think that BA ought to get them a job. Face it English and History majors can be administrative assistants or work for local papers, or teach in private schools just for starters... So I'd give myself a 6.</p>

<p>As for grad school. That's a 10.</p>

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<p>Well, like I've said several times, MrsP, my D who graduated from an LAC with a liberal arts major, is supporting herself. She's just not using her degree to do so.</p>

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<p>soozevt, I tried to send you a PM but your mailbox is full.</p>

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<p>garland, I ended up doing something far removed from my degrees, but I wouldn't recommend anyone taking the path I did.</p>

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<p>Binx: The word from WJS:</p>

<p>The Hot Major for Undergrads Seeking High Pay Is Economics</p>

<p><a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Departments/elearning/?article=hotmajor%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Departments/elearning/?article=hotmajor&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>TheDad, I must have given the wrong impression if I said that one must be hyperfocused only on one career. Not at all. There must be flexibility and one must be adaptable. The reason some people are not employable is that they assume someone will want their skills and will hire them, none of which can ever be counted on. However, if one gets a terminal degree in one's field, whether it is the arts or science, it makes the graduate much more employable. If the person is flexible and realizes one might have to be self-employed at some time or another vs relying on someone else to pay for one's services, then that person will likely never be unemployed. One of the most successful adults I know is a former actor who got tired of being unemployed, took 5 different ideas and ran with them. This person is not employed by anyone, yet earns substantial income doing various jobs in the entainment industry realm by being creative and open to new ideas.</p>

<p>If there is anything lacking in our educational system, it's a lack of career planning for college students. If they enter college with no idea of what they want to do, and leave in the same situation, then they are not fully educated.</p>

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<p>


Sorry to sound argumentative, MrsP, but those of us who are saying our children are not approaching their college choice as if they were selecting a trade school are not disagreeing with any of the above. My children will pay their own bills: they do already, that's what summer jobs and internships are for. They know how to support themselves: S#1 purchases and cooks his own food at college and S#2 does grocery shopping and cooking at home (and both will be tag-teaming to cook at least once weekly over the summer), and both do their own laundry and have since roughly age 10. They manage their own money (both have checking accounts, S#1 has a credit card he pays off monthly and S#2 has a draw-down debit card) and pay for the gas they put in the car.</p>

<p>Why would you assume someone "can't even earn a living" just because they did not have "employability" in mind when they selected their college?</p>

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<p>At the end of her 4 years, my D will have a liberal arts degree as a religion major (does not plan on being a minister or going on to seminary). I fully support her choice because I want for her to study what ever she wants. I remember how many of my family members asked her what is she going to do as a religion major and her response was pretty much anything I want. Right now she is looking to go on to law school but she has also set her D-plan where she will do a few internships before graduating. If she changes her mind about law school it will still be all good.</p>

<p>Some students know what it is that they want to do and set their path in engineering , cs, business, nursing, etc and are ready to get a job in those fields. However, I think more students do walk away at the end of 4 years with a liberal arts education. Some students know going into college that they have plans for grad or professional school while others have no clue.</p>

<p>I just happen to be a fan of a liberal arts education and getting an education for education's sake not so much getting an education as platform to a job. I do believe that no matter what your major is all students that pursue this degree will walk away with some transferrable skills that will help them in the workplace. I remember a comment that Marite once made and It has always stayed in the back of my mind regarding a liberal arts education.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But the point of a liberal arts education, at Harvard or elsewhere, is to produce graduates who are flexible, can read critically and write cogently. Some companies value those traits. And if they do, they are likely to recruit among the top colleges.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I remember going to college at a time when my parents said major in whatever you want as long as you can get a job when you graduate. Went to Baruch, was a maketing major, never worked in marketing a day in my life. Went on to grad school because it did help to advance me in my career. I have had a very nice run in corporate life, I make good money and it pays the bills. It is my no means my life's work or something that I am truly passionate about. I do agree with thedad that after a period of time the job does become golden handcuffs. My job has paid for vacations, tuition payments a roof over my head etc. The only thing I have found that becomes clearer for me is the longer I work in corporate life, the more I realize I am not a corporate person. THis is the reason that I am back in grad school again so that I cna do what I want to do. I know that I will probably take a hugh paycut, but I am also at the time in my life that I want to do what makes me happy.</p>

<p>I remember that my younger sister was making a pretty nice 6 figure salary as an HR director. She would call me in the evening telling me some days she was so stressed out she could not even talk to her kids. One day she called me at work, told me she was leaving her job to pursue her passion of becoming a history professor. You could hear the stress leave her body. Right now she is going to grad school, got certified and is now teaching global studies in the NYC public highschool system for about a third of the money she made as an HR director. I have never seen her happier. Is this a waste of her Columbia U eduation and her MBA ? Nope.</p>

<p>Considering that my D will have close to 50 years to work, the whole concept of a career for life is dead, and people do change jobs and careers, she'll do whatever she wants to do and will find her passion before it is all over. I think that once our kids find their passion in whatever it is they want to do what and if are fortunate to do what they love the money will come. It may not me as much as some thing they should have especially when there seems to be an expecation on the part of others that she should have a job rolling in the dough because of her education, but you can't always look at wealth in terms of dollars and cents.</p>

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<p>MrsP, have you found any colleges that meet your requirement? those that have what you would consider adequate career planning services? Have you found any top colleges that do a good job providing adequate career planning services? </p>

<p>It appears also from the other thread that some feel that colleges should require coursework on skills that improve your employability . Does this sound like a good idea to anybody? Teaching you to be a good employee?</p>

<p>Is some vocational training required to be educated? Some on the other thread suggested folks could read the great books and self-educate or achieve a well-contemplated life without clogging up their career path. Is it best to spend some college time on the career making courses and leave some of the (what some might call) luxury courses out? Or can you learn what you need to be employable on your own and leave college for college's sake?</p>

<p>Do people believe a UG degree in some disciplines to be a "luxury" degree, maybe even an anachronism ? </p>

<p>I approached a teacher of my D, very bright man, a teacher of math who came from industry and ( because of perfect math scores on standardized tests and other indicators) asked "Should my kid be in a tech/heavy science school where she is surrounded 24/7 by tech/heavy science stuff? Should she go somewhere and be a brain in a jar?" He , although an intensely practical man, answered that she should "throw things against the wall for a few years and see what sticks" and should go to a school that kids could do that. (To be fair to him, he is also a disciple of collaborative learning, team concepts, communication skills and precise language. These are all things he considers vital in being a hirable human.)</p>

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<p>Good career planning services do not require courses in how to get jobs. Good career planning services organize on campus interviews for students by a wide variety of prospective employers. My S, a freshman, gets regular info from his career planning office. Good career planning services run workshops for students on how to write resumes and cvs and conduct themselves at interviews, and so forth. Goodness, I even heard one person in a career planning office say that her staff even make suggestions about what to do in case of "disaster" such as dropping ketchup on your tie, or how to pace yourself in a day-long interview so that you are not too tired at that all-important dinner (when you are most likely to drop ketchup on your tie!). They offer mock interviews to students who request them.</p>

<p>Some colleges are better than others at providing such services. But this has nothing to do with choice of majors and curricular offerings and requirements.</p>

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<p>marite, I was thinking more of the suggestions for actual credit classes (and some may think core requirements, remember I believe it was viewpoint who wanted to build the new college that allowed for all this) , and MrsP's assertion that one must consider employability as an element of being an educated person. Not as much outplacement, but curriculum.</p>

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<p>Now to actually 'shake' the pot...</p>

<p>There seems to be the thought on this thread that obtaining a highly employable degree (such as engineering, some sciences, MBA, MD, etc.) and obtaining a good, well-rounded 'education' are mutually exclusive. They're not. Although there are many students who have no idea what they want to do as a career when they enter college, there are some who do. Some of these will change their minds as they go along but many don't. </p>

<p>There's also a distinction between 'getting a job' and being somewhat self-supportive and entering a profession in their area of interest that has the potential to also pay very well. The amount of income they receive may seem a bit materialistic from an idealist's perspective but for most people it becomes more and more important as they face the realities of living. </p>

<p>It's interesting that my D who's pursuing a computer science degree (highly employable at a relatively high starting salary) is actually taking almost double the major units that her roommate, a poli-sci major, is taking. The workload of some of these liberal arts majors is so light in comparison to some of the engineering/science/etc. majors that I'd argue that the 'employable' majors are actually receiving a more robust and expansive education than some of their colleagues in other majors.
The net is that in addition to obtaining directly applicable practical skills, some of these employable majors also receive the 'well-rounded' education that will help them in many other ways throughout life.</p>

<p>Let's face it, most people will need to become employed and support themselves in life. Being employable in a field that provides a reasonable income is important to most people, if not when they first graduate, then definitely own the road when they have to support families, buy houses, want to go on vacations, etc. Colleges are happy to have their students study almost any area they feel like at the time with absolutely no emphasis or information conveyed regarding employability. Many of these grads will be disapointed when they 'discover' upon graduation how unemployable they might be. As another poster stated, it would be best if they had a plan that allows them to pursue their area of interest as well as a career. They need to enter and exit college with their eyes wide open rather than veiled.</p>