<p>I understand your point.<br>
I just don't agree with the idea that employability is an element of being an educated person. My H was laid off several times. It did not make him 'less well-educated." Years ago, there was an influx of Soviet Jews in the Boston area. You'd take a cab and find yourself talking in French to the driver about Toltstoy or Hegel. Just because they were driving cabs by necessity did not make them less well-educated. And many of them had been engineers and physicists in the USSR. </p>
<p>There are plenty of vocational schools; I provided a list of some in the Boston area that are well regarded. There's nothing revolutionary in Viewpoint's desire to create another one. </p>
<p>You said your D has wanted to be a doctor from the kindergarten or first grade. You quite rightly want to support her in her aspirations. My S has been interested in math since kindergarten. I want to support his aspirations. He knows that actuaries make lots of money. But, hey, in 6th grade, he wrote that his one of his favorite books was Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe. I have not found anything remotely "useful" about string theory. But I believe, along with Campbell, in "follow thy bliss."</p>
<p>My D is at a LAC and she plans to double major in English and Theatre Arts-- for the LOVE of it. I could not be happier for her. She hasn't a clue about a future job. </p>
<p>IMO a four-year stint doing something fun, interesting, intellectually satisfying, and fruitful will "prime the pump" for an engaged, meaningful adulthood. Doing something for the love of it is NEVER a bad plan. As I said on the other thread, four years of intellectual bliss will RUIN a person for accepting a lifetime of 9-5 doldrums. That's a GOOD thing.</p>
<p>I am particularly happy she's picked English (though had she picked studio art I would still have been supportive). If you can think, analyze, communicate, and write, it will stand you in good stead for all kinds of jobs and for entrepreneurial ventures. </p>
<p>My D has worked for about 7 years now. She knows how to work. She knows how to save. She gets no allowance (never has). I am absolutely confident she will figure out something wonderful-- because she has the clear idea that her happiness/success relies on her.</p>
<p>Finally, IMO, the most interesting jobs (and frequently those that pay the best) are "find a need and fill it" jobs that did not exist until some smart, creative, bold person identified the need and decided to forge that path.</p>
<p>If you spend your life on someone else's A,B,C path to JOB/riches, it may be harder to develop innovative thinking and boldness.</p>
<p>Curm, you sure do know how to dig the shovel in and turn over a good clump of dirt.</p>
<p>For those interested in this topic, you might want to stop by the music major forum. We kinda wore out on this topic lately, but there are plenty of very detailed discussions on employment considerations.</p>
<p>I feel compelled to say again that I am just stirring the pot. I'm trying to get the questions out there. I'm just pitching 'taters for y'all to hit out of the park. I'm just asking questions and I would hate for someone to think that my views were to found in any of my questions. They can't. marite, I'm hoping I am not the intended recipient of your last post. If so, I apologize for being unclear on what my personal views are.</p>
<p>In my experience, lots of poly sci majors end up being lawyers.
My seemingly non-employable S has worked very hard this year. One of his courses is described as being "for those who like 20-24 hours of homework per week."
"slackards" and "unemployable" belong to different columns, though I agree that a pre-professional education need not exclude a good foundation in the liberal arts MIT certainly thinks there's value in the humanities and social sciences.</p>
<p>No, you were not a target. Just an example :)
We do what we can to support our kids, whether their interests be in violin strings, string theory or string beans (or bodies like string-beans).</p>
<p>Actually this poli-sci person I was referring to does plan to go on to law school and in the perspective stated I was really referring to someone who plans to enter the job market with a BA in poli-sci (for example) versus someone using it as an UG and planning to continue on to a more practical degree such as law, MD, MBA, etc. </p>
<p>I do think there are a lot of people who don't realize the amount of work some of the engineering/science majors must do versus the other majors - at least at the higher-end institutions. My D pursuing a CS major at UCSD for example, will often have a program due each week that requires 30-40 hours of work just for the program - this is on top of advanced math and and other classes including GEs such as history and music. In order to be able to get her degree done in 4 years, she must take 4 classes per quarter versus the 3 classes the poli-sci major does hence my comment about the difference in the number of units required for the two majors. Note - I realize that many other degrees including music and theatre might also require a large number of hours outside of class. For many of the poli-sci, history, communications, etc. majors though, it sometimes seems to be all they can do to figure out how to spend all of their free time.</p>
<p>That may be true that humanities and social sciences majors have more free time. I'd hesitate to characterize it as "slacking." David Halberstam considered his time on the Harvard Crimson more valuable than his classes; Crimson alumni in fact have gone on to great careers in journalism. Conan O'Brien and others who spent most of their times at the Harvard Lampoon went on to write for Saturday Night Live, etc... There is much learning that goes on outside of classes and books. </p>
<p>Anyone pursuing a double major is not going to have much free time. Kudoes to your D for holding up so well.</p>
<p>I absolutely agree that studying an "employable" major like engineering does not preclude gaining a well-rounded education. My son makes time for a double major in engineering and german, which usually requires around 24 hours per week to gain around 17 credits. Many of his engineering classmates study an additional major or a minor, too. And I don't have to tell you how many hours outside of class were required for problem sets, computer programs, labs, and writing technical papers, in addition to reading literature and writing papers in a foreign language. </p>
<p>Also, students who can't fit everything into a "normal" schedule find a way to fit studies in elsewhere. Son studies music performance, theory and composition privately. Some of his friends fit in humanities and social science courses in the spring and summer terms. Where there is a will, there is a way. </p>
<p>But, most of his dorm-mates who studied a single liberal arts subject had FAR fewer hours of class per week, maybe as few as 12. I might wonder if those students were making the most of their time in college to gain depth and breadth of education. Nothing wrong with studing in the liberal arts, but they don't necessarily corner the market on well-roundedness.</p>
<p>Late to the party, but nonetheless, this thread reather surprises me.</p>
<p>How the blazes can you pick a college based on "employability"? I would think any college specific effect is swamped by (1) the kid and (2) the kid's major. Am I missing something here?</p>
<p>Worse, there's a long history of chasing hot fields. Having observed higher ed and the job market for quite a few years, I can fairly make the following observations:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>majors are "hot" because there are not enough grads to go around. Pure market effects. But, why not enough to go around? Usually external factors, like SOX and accountants right now, like comp sci just at the start of the dot com boom.</p></li>
<li><p>Chasing the "hot" areas is tough. The employment market seems to correct faster than most kids can get through college! I predict a flood of accountants in another year or two.</p></li>
<li><p>yes, some fields will always have a level of demand, like engineering in aggregate, but watch out for specific disciplines. Remember areospace? petroleum? And, engineering has continuing demand because again, supply issues, due to the famed difficulty of the major. Worse, the profession itself has some real limitations, as any practicing engineer will tell you.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>So, put this all together, and one must wonder what "employability" means?</p>
<p>ikf - My point exactly. My D made it worse timewise on herself by pursuing a chemistry minor along with the CS major but she's interested in the emerging field of computer science/chemistry combined (genome, DNA, modeling, etc.). I cautioned her about the workload she was in for but she's doing this because it's what she's passionate about. Although your son's probably pursuing his double major in engineering/German mostly because he's interested in it, that combo can also prove to be quite valuable - especially if he's interested in working in Germany or for a German multi-national engineering firm. </p>
<p>marite - I carefully avoided the use of the term 'slacker'. Some associate it with a particular major but I associate it more with the particular student.</p>
<p>The reality of it is that some students are pursuing the degree as an actual slacker, i.e. it's a degree that requires much less work than some others, while other students are pursuing those same degrees because they're truly interested in the subject matter and are passionate about their pursuit. I say more power to those who are passionate about their studies regardless of major - I just hope they truly understand what opportunities are likely to lie ahead for them. If they're happy with it and it fits into the general plan then great. If they realize they may end up in a job that doesn't require any particular degree or perhaps even a college degree at all, they're happy with this and can afford it, then great.</p>
<p>There does however, seem to be a large subset of students pursuing these majors only because they don't know what else to do and it affords them the most free time for socialization (i.e. partying), etc. These are the students who could benefit from more focus and a reality check of what's likely (there are always outliers to the norm) to be ahead of them once they graduate with the UG degree and try to immediately enter the job market.</p>
<p>I personally thought "employability" meant finding employment in one's area of study/expertise. I would have been happy to support my son if he had chosen to study music exclusively as a major, but I wouldn't consider music to be a highly employable area. Sure, he could find some employment, but I would hope that it would be in his area of interest that I paid all that money for! ;) And certainly, judging employability is even more important after spending the time and money on graduate/professional school.</p>
I agree with newmassdad. This is one reason why I encouraged S1 to major in physics/math rather than engineering, although the main reason is that he's just more of a theoretical than applied guy. But technologies change, in many cases quite rapidly. The underlying science tends to remain more stable. There are many physicists and mathematicians working in industry -- clearly their analytical skills work to their advantage. But if one majors in IT or CS, he/she had better be prepared for lifelong skills updating -- those fields seem to have a half-life of about 18 months.</p>
<p>It's very hard to slack off if you have two problem sets per week plus a foreign language. I suppose some majors are more forgiving than others--and some structures as well. For example, it is well known that Harvard's reading period allows lots of students to slack off for much of the semester and cram like mad in the ten days before exams. I'm sure there are partiers among those eleventh-hour students, but there are many who use their non-class time in ways that will be very useful down the road. I knew one young woman who did sportscasting while at Radcliffe. She ended up working for a large entertainment organization.</p>
<p>a couple of comments . first and my guess is sjmom would agree....no matter your field or major --and i am a geologist , rocks arent thought to change much --you need to prepare for liftime education etc. ...but i think that is just exactly your point .....</p>
<p>I generally fall into the camp of don't ignore post college ramifications of your college efforts. Too pretend that employment wont be easier for someone who majors in business and nourishes their interest in the classics and history v. a classics/history major who probably has a head for business is just naive. </p>
<p>Ultimately an educated person/adult has to find a way to stand on their own feet..... not saying -at all- that you should chase a hot field ...just that you should thinkk ahead</p>
<p>I hope my son 2 will at least think about employment as he looks at college</p>
<p>mootmom, I don't mind if you argue with me. I might even agree with some of what you said. I'm hearing from too many parents in my community whose adult children with college degrees are back home, underemployed and miserable. </p>
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<p>Why would you assume someone "can't even earn a living" just because they did not have "employability" in mind when they selected their college?</p>
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<p>That is not necessarily what I said. If you exchange the word "major" with "college" it would be closer to what I meant to say.</p>
<p>It doesn't matter to me at all what anyone else's children choose to study in college. I was stating my opinion.</p>
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<p>MrsP, have you found any colleges that meet your requirement? those that have what you would consider adequate career planning services? Have you found any top colleges that do a good job providing adequate career planning services?</p>
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<p>I haven't gotten that far yet. We're still looking at average GPAs and SAT scores.</p>
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<p>It appears also from the other thread that some feel that colleges should require coursework on skills that improve your employability . Does this sound like a good idea to anybody? Teaching you to be a good employee?</p>
</blockquote>
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<p>Did you think I meant that? Not at all. What young adults need to know is how to support themselves. I said they need to be flexible and to know how to earn money. That may mean working for someone else or for themselves. The other idea I was talking about was knowing what career options are available to them. When I talk to high school students, most of them have spent their school years learning how to be good students and how to get into college. Few know of the vast career possibilities that await them. So they study what they know. The LACs I am looking into churn out a huge number of business majors. That may be the career of the future. I tend to think in the next decade, though, that there are going to be more business majors than jobs available.</p>