Rating top UK universities vs top US universities

College Search & Selection
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<p>Data published in Britain show that 75 per cent of students there are now awarded a “good degree”(lst or 2.1), whereas because of NUI determination to avoid grade inflation, this percentage remained very much lower, at about 60 per cent.</p>

<p>However the senate was determined to avoid the grade inflation that was damaging the reputation of the British university system. Accordingly, very conservatively, the steps taken were limited to measures designed to ensure that the humanities would in future mark students out of 100 per cent – and not, as had been traditional in most cases, out of 75 per cent.</p>

<p>[Grade</a> inflation debate skewed by flaws in research on NUI - The Irish Times - Sat, Apr 10, 2010](<a href=“http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0410/1224268034796.html]Grade”>http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0410/1224268034796.html) </p>

<p>The Irish are trying to avoid the inflation in the UK. The grade inflation in the UK makes US schools look like hardcore instituitions. Take into account the final exam policy of British schools, and one would become worried about standards. The British claim the standard of the students have reason- but is it really the case with inflated and dumbed down A-levels. </p>

<p>The only good thing is that intense documentation has not be done. Know comprehensive study on UK standards have been pursued by the Brits- basically despite doubling of first class and second class upper degrees awarded- they have not bothered to study this inflation- remaining stagnant.</p>

122

<p>More Evidence:
Durham University </p>

<p>[Lecturers</a> refute Times attack on grade inflation | Palatinate](<a href=“http://www.palatinate.org.uk/news/national-news/lecturers-refute-times-attack-on-grade-inflation/]Lecturers”>http://www.palatinate.org.uk/news/national-news/lecturers-refute-times-attack-on-grade-inflation/) </p>

<p>In response to an increase in first classes awarded at Durham which rose by of up to 14% (I think this is way too high- I would assume it refers to both firsts and second class upper).</p>

<p>“Our student admission quality profile at Durham consistently generates a degree success profile with a natural preponderance of II.1s. That of course gives us a certain natural position (high) in the tables,” says Professor Nicholas Saul, Chair of the School of Modern Languages.</p>

<p>Same response used by American academics at Ivies IMO. Except Durham is no where equivalent to the lower ivies except for the best of their courses.</p>

<p>Warwick</p>

<p>“At present, the University still awards well above the average of first class honours, approximately double the 2006/07 national average of 11.7%. According to the Higher Education Statistics Agency, Warwick is also well above the Russell Group of Universities’ average of 15.7%.”</p>

<p>“According to University figures, compared to 2003/04, when 20% of Warwick degrees awarded were first class, there was a small increase to 23% in 2006/7 after minor fluctuations in the interim years. 2:1s have hovered around the 61.2% mark and 2:2s have averaged at 14.4% figure for the past five years.”</p>

<p>“In the long term, the picture is quite different. In March 2004, the BBC reported that Warwick “saw the proportion of students gaining first-class degrees almost double from 10.6% to 20.3% during the five years” between 1998 and 2003.”</p>

<p>“If grade inflation occurs in some institutions and not others then that could create unfairness and inefficiency through generating uncertainties and imperfect information.” Dr Geoff Meaden, who retired as a lecturer this year at Canterbury Christ Church University, says"</p>

<p>[RaW</a> 1251AM - RaW News - Warwick Grade Inflation “Slow And Uncontrolled”](<a href=“http://www.radio.warwick.ac.uk/news/articles/0000038]RaW”>http://www.radio.warwick.ac.uk/news/articles/0000038)</p>

<p>Warwick awards 84% of its students honors degree- basically Warwicks grade inflation makes the one in US schools look like grade fluctuations. Grade deflated Schools like Cornell and Princeton award probably 40% of their students honor classifications. Columbia is 50%. Harvard is purportedly close to that of Warwick at 90% except the students at Harvard are in a class only Warwick students could aspire to reach. Even more revealing about this data is that the Russel group awards an average of 15% first class degrees</p>

123

<p>[Is</a> getting a good degree too easy? | Education | The Guardian](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2003/mar/18/studentwork.highereducation]Is”>Inflation by degrees | Student work | The Guardian)</p>

<p>Percentages of good degrees (First Class or Upper second Class) being awarded The most:</p>

<p>Oxford 82.3%</p>

<p>Cambridge 81.9%</p>

<p>Warwick 74.7%</p>

<p>Bristol 72.4%</p>

<p>Bath 72.2%</p>

<p>School of Oriental and</p>

<p>African Studies 70.9%</p>

<p>LSE 70.2%</p>

<p>Exeter 68.7%</p>

<p>Aston 67.8%</p>

<p>York 67.4%</p>

<p>University College London 66.2%</p>

<p>The fewest:</p>

<p>Leeds Metropolitan 46.4%</p>

<p>University of Luton 46.3%</p>

<p>Coventry University 38.8%</p>

<p>University of Greenwich 38.7%</p>

<p>South Bank University 37.9%</p>

<p>University of Teesside 36.9%</p>

<p>University of North London 36.3%</p>

<p>London Guildhall 34.1%</p>

<p>Thames Valley University 32.2%</p>

124

<p>As expected top schools are grade inflated- Oxbridge give over 80% honors degree way more than what is given at Columbia/Princeton/JHU/Caltech/MIT. Its only peers are inflated Harvard/Stanford.</p>

<p>This data was in 2003 mind you- things have gotten far worse</p>

<p>Warwick’s inflation is too high for such an average school. Now though it awards over 80% of its students good degrees. Bristol and Bath have similar statistics. Way more than Cornell/Bowdoin/Vanderbilt/Rice who have student bodies equivalent or likely superior to these school. </p>

<p>This was 7 years ago- its likely that since the Brits are not analyzing grade inflation well enough, it is not being curbed as evidenced by Warwick’s jump to over 80% in 7 years.</p>

<p>I have more evidence of severe grade inflation in British schools, if anyone feels like they need more.</p>

<p>Interesting:</p>

<p>"Some students might find the reference to improved teaching a bit hard to take. Jacob Hobson, a final year history undergraduate at Sussex University, believes the amount of teaching he receives leaves a lot to be desired. “My only contact time throughout the whole week comprises two seminars which are one hour and 50 minutes long. There is no formal teaching as such. The seminars can revolve around a designated topic for discussion or one of the students giving a presentation. There is rarely any structured teaching.”</p>

<p>People in British schools do not get the amount of teaching and interaction required in American schools. Two seminars at one hour and 50 minutes- are you kidding me? No structured teaching lol</p>

<p>I had 10 hours of lab work a week as a science major- not including the time I spent crafting lab reports and doing pop quizzes. And this was just for my lab classes which were a fifth of the work I did each semester.</p>

125

<p>Average Grades for graduating seniors at top schools (due to the diversity of honors classification, I would argue that a 3.5 should be the basis for a good degree)</p>

<p>GPA Averages 2006. I have bracketed average SAT scores out of 1600 to give an idea of the strength of the student body. Disclaimer: SAT is not indicative of the student body.</p>

<p>Harvard: 3.45 (1484)
Princeton: 3.28 (1475)
Yale: 3.51
Dartmouth: 3.42 (1442)
Brown: 3.61 (Dont hate the player, hate the game :)) (1424)
MIT: 3.26
Columbia: 3.42 (1431)
Stanford: 3.55 (1425)
Rice: 3.3
Georgetown: 3.42 (1387)
Johns Hopkins: 3.24 (1375)
Cornell: 3.36 (1379)
Vanderbilt: 3.32 (1370)
Michigan: 3.27 (1312)
Berkeley: 3.27 (1316)
Northwestern: 3.41(1402)
Georgia Tech: 3.07 (1308)</p>

<p>Interesting Yale’s honors is based on class rank so this is effective in battling its inflation. Its awards of Cum laue, magna cum laude and such is way lower than what is seen at Oxbridge)</p>

<p>To equate Brown’s undergraduate to KCL is at best laughable. Brown’s students are nearly as strong as those at Columbia. The students at Dartmouth share similar strengths with Columbia.</p>

126

<p>It is a well known fact that US schools set harsher acceptance standards for foreigners so I would not be surprised a KCL level grad would have to drop a stepdown from their actual quality (lower ivies).</p>

<p>Furthermore KCL takes in about 5000 UGs every year, hence there would be quite a lot of opportunities for both local and foreign students (these internationals are actually encouraged in the UK, not discriminated on like the US) so it would be easier to get into. I doubt Carleton and W&L take more than 600 max a year and will probably cap the number of internationals and still require a higher standard for them.</p>

<p>So, bruv, I think that was quite a poor uneducated example.</p>

<p>KCL is in the class of the Brown, Cornell and co, and better than th likes of NYU or Georgetown. The average KCL, Warwick, St Andrews student would be a star in the latter 2.</p>

127

<p>All I see in these long posts of grade inflation are your opinions and surmisation. Honestly, I did not see the point in reading since you could not be bothered to separate/highlight what was written in the report from what are your own surmisations. This does not make one appreciate the quality of a US grad if such is the standard.</p>

<p>KCL, Warwick, Bristol might not be in the class of Columbia but definitely in the class of Brown and John Hopkins.</p>

128

<p>And please stop fibbing, the average good grade is not 3.5 lol</p>

<p>Why are you pulling the wool over our eyes.</p>

<p>The average comparative good grade is 3.0 to 3.3 depending on the university. Even as low as 2.7 is regarded as a low 2.1</p>

<p>[The</a> University of Exeter - International Students](<a href=“http://offices.exeter.ac.uk/international/staff/Qualifications_Guide/qatar.shtml]The”>http://offices.exeter.ac.uk/international/staff/Qualifications_Guide/qatar.shtml)</p>

<p>[Duke</a> Graduate School: GPA](<a href=“http://gradschool.duke.edu/admissions/requirements/ugpa.php]Duke”>http://gradschool.duke.edu/admissions/requirements/ugpa.php)</p>

<p>Top UK schools set it closer to 3.5 because they know of the US grade inflation and only want the topmost 2.1 and 1sts since in reality the topmost 2.1s are low 2.1 calibres.</p>

<p>From your list above, most US unis award a good/top 2.1 to their students.</p>

<p>And Sussex is not a top UK uni, try and stop using mediocre UK unis for your examples.</p>

129

<p>Sefago, if I was to follow your style of singular anecdoctal evidence. Here is an example of a US girl that got into UMich (as she is a citizen) but could only get into Leeds and Exeter in the UK, waiting on UCL.</p>

<p>Post 119</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/858355-imperial-college-london-vs-university-michigan-where-do-i-go-s-8.html?highlight=imperial+georgia+tech[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/858355-imperial-college-london-vs-university-michigan-where-do-i-go-s-8.html?highlight=imperial+georgia+tech&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>"Wow, is this pertinent! My daughter (American living in the Middle East) just got into Michigan yesterday (where both her parents went) and also has offers from good British Universities–so far Leeds, Exeter, and she is waiting on University College London, like the person who started this thread. Cost is a factor for us, so England is cheaper, as she qualifies for the in-country fee–we only moved here from England a year ago. But we so want our American daughter who has never lived in America to have a U.S. College experience. She wants that too but we don’t qualify for financial aid…we earn just that little bit too much. I am going to print this thread for her as she can then look at the pros and cons…the con being student debt if she goes to Michigan…sadly! "</p>

<p>Are you now saying UMich is of the calibre of Leeds? I would remind you again that entry bariers and circumstances are different for both countries and your example was not good.</p>

130

<p>^ She applied to those schools- does not even compare to the example I gave. Did she get rejected by UCL and get into Michigan? Michigan is not even that selective anyways. I am looking for comparison between the academic strength of a student and schools that accepted them and dinged them.</p>

<p>W& L and Carleton are selective but they are one of the few schools which welcome international students. Even ones with lower stats that can get into KCL. The student who got waitlisted at Gettysburgh is probably in the same quality as a Gettysburgh student. The only reason he or she likely got any pity from W&L and Carleton is their recruitment effors towards internationals</p>

<p>You have not addressed the high number of grade inflated grades at these substandard British school. KCL is not equivalent to Brown and everyone who has experienced both of them knows this. You claim entry barriers are not equivalent but also claim that KCL is in the same class as Brown- without being aware that Brown students are one of the best in the world.</p>

<p>This is a suitable ranking:</p>

<p>Ivies+MIT+Stanford+ Caltech > Oxbridge (Student quality and academic quality)
LSE, Imperial= Privates like JHU, Northwestern, University of Chicago (Who econ students are better than LSE’s claim to fame economics)
KCL, Warwick, Nottingham, Durham, Bristol = GWU, NYU (For student body though, the academics at GWU stomp those at any of these grade inflated British schools)</p>

131

<p><a href=“http://www.mcgill.ca/files/gradapplicants/UNITED_KINGDOM.pdf[/url]”>http://www.mcgill.ca/files/gradapplicants/UNITED_KINGDOM.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

132

<p>“Furthermore KCL takes in about 5000 UGs every year, hence there would be quite a lot of opportunities for both local and foreign students (these internationals are actually encouraged in the UK, not discriminated on like the US) so it would be easier to get into. I doubt Carleton and W&L take more than 600 max a year and will probably cap the number of internationals and still require a higher standard for them.”</p>

<p>So basically its a cash cow program? Internationals are encouraged at top schools actually only at HYPSM because everyone wants to go there. HYPSM cannot reduce their quality so as to encourage people to go there. The student quality at KCL is not strong. Its not close to Wake forest talkless of Georgetown or Northwestern. An intake of 5000 indicates that there is a variation in quality of students. Comparing it to JHU and Brown which have access to the best students in the world is just another baseless claim.</p>

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<p>Does not matter- No one in the US considers a 3.0-3.5 top quality. Only Cash Cow British programs who need International students to fund their Masters programs would. </p>

<p>Is it not disturbing that a 3.3 from some average US undergrad can easily get into good British masters programs and excel. tells you about the quality of British schools.</p>

<p>Even LSE masters takes undergrads with less than a 3.5- however, this is not considered a competitive GPA in the US for going to graduate school.</p>

<p>The US changes their views on grades so as to balance an inflation while the UK continues with the same archaic classification encouraging grade inflation</p>

134

<p>The Mcgill example is for Canadian educational system not for the US educational system. I would admit the Canadian educational system is very deflated and not as inflated as the US and UK system.</p>

<p>The University of Exeter fact sheet shows requirements for American schools in Qatar. The grading system at qatar schools are not the same as in the United States. I know from experience.</p>

<p>Do you know the difference between Qatar and US? :slight_smile: Qatar is in the middle east, US is in North America.</p>

<p>Top UK schools set it at 3.5 but they take 3.3’s too. And these 3.3 students get a masters. The joke in my undergrad is for lowest group of students to go to Edinburgh, St Andrews and LSE for their taught masters to pass a year and improve their resume.</p>

<p>I repeat a 3.5 is not considered a good GPA in the US. It would not easily get you into a top grad school.</p>

<p>This is the best subjective discussions which show a level of knowledge about the two systems:</p>

<p><a href="http://www..co.uk/showthread.php?t=578052&page=2%5B/url%5D">http://www..co.uk/showthread.php?t=578052&page=2</a></p>

<p>'d say, generally…</p>

<p>Oxbridge -
HYP</p>

<p>LSE/UCL/Imperial -
Stanford/Columbia/Duke/Cornell/Penn/Johns Hopkins/Berkeley/Chicago/MIT/Caltech</p>

<p>Warwick/Durham/Bristol/King’s/Notts/Edinburgh -
NYU/Texas at Austin/UCLA/Northwestern/Brown/Dartmouth/USC/Rice/Emory/Carnegie Mellon/Georgetown/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame/Michigan/Tufts/UNC</p>

<p>Manchester/York/Birmingham/Sheffield/Bath -
William and Mary/Boston col/UCSD/Rochester/Florida/Purdue/Fordham/Virginia</p>

<p>KCL/Warwick/Bristol/Durham would definitely not be able to match the academic finesse of the top 30 American schools- I would however admit that they have equivalent prestige in their countries.</p>

135

<p>First few things I would agree with you on.</p>

<p>Yes, UK unis use PGs as cash cows, and as I have said, PG in UK pales well behind that of US. No comparison, US wins hands down.</p>

<p>Yes, HYPSM can not reduce their quality so that people go, neither does Oxbridge but for PGs since the other top UK unis cannot compete and the funds from foreign is very useful as they can charge double, they have to lower a bit for PG. Most will first go to Oxbridge, Imperial, LSE and even UCL before they consider KCL, hence KCL and the others have to lower a bit as incentive to capture the lucrative market.</p>

<p>KCL, Warwick, Bristol and Durham UG students would smash Georgetown hands down, it is not in their league AT ALL, maybe not Northwestern as it is a top school and might be on par. Warwick and co are in the Class of Brown, Duke, JHU and UMich.</p>

<p>Not all ivies are in the class of Oxbridge at undergrad internationally or locally, only HYP.</p>

136

<p>Stanford, Caltech and MIT are way better than Imperial, LSE and UCL. I concede that.</p>

137

<p>LSE = Wharton TBH. Considering that a quarter of Nobel Laureates in Economics are from LSE.</p>

138

<p>“KCL, Warwick, Bristol and Durham UG students would smash Georgetown hands down, it is not in their league AT ALL, maybe not Northwestern as it is a top school. Warwick and co are in the Class of Brown, Duke, JHU and UMich.”</p>

<p>Whats your evidence of this? LOL- no considers Warwick in the same class as Brown/Duke/JHU or UMich except you.</p>

<p>No one would turn down Warwick for Brown. Heck no one would turn down Georgetown to go to Warwick except for the fees. Georgetown has exchange links with Warwick and KCL- but only takes students from the War Studies at KCL and the business and history department at Warwick. The rest are considered inferior. On the other side Georgetown students only has direct links with Oxford/LSE/UCL/St Andrews/ Edinburgh. You need a 3.6 to study abroad at Oxford. This is not equivalent to the top honors and is basically average students. </p>

<p>The science or social science students go to UCL, The SFS and Economics/Government/History students go to LSE or Oxford. No one goes to Warwick because they are not seen as a peer school. Warwick and KCL students come to Georgetown and most importantly they struggle with the academics. Mind you these are the best students from top departments at Warwick and KCL. This is personal observation- if you have a similar observation in which Brown Students go and study at Warwick for any program please let me know. Or Duke tries to mix with Warwick students let me know. Warwick is no better than USC or Tufts University and is not a major research university. Its presence in Finance is not even at the same league as UMich Ross not to talk of Brown which is a recruited school for Investment bankers. You can find people from Georgetown working in IBD at City of London, while it would be difficult to find a Warwick student on Wall street.</p>

<p>Warwick= Tufts/USC/UNC-Chapel Hill in reputation and quality</p>

139

<p>“LSE = Wharton TBH. Considering that a quarter of Nobel Laureates in Economics are from LSE.”</p>

<p>Does not make sense though. For one LSE has not dominated the Nobel Laureate in recent years. We are talking of now, not the past, that is what people dont get. I took a quick glance at the Nobels isn the last 10 years and Amherst/Williams/MIT/Carnegie Mellon/Harvard/Cambridge/University of Minnesota graudates recently winning Nobel Laureates. </p>

<p>Why though? I thought a Warwick student would beat a Williams student hands down?</p>

<p>i took a glance at Warwick’s exchange programs</p>

<p>Engineering students at Warwick has exchange with Wisconsin Madison
Business students at Warwick exchange with Uconn
Economics student at Warwick exchange links with Georgetown</p>

<p>if Warwick is so good, why are top American schools not trying to form links with them as they do with Oxbridge/LSE/Imperial and UCL</p>

<p>Why do they have to settle for lesser schools like Georgetown, Uconn and Madison?</p>

140

<p>How do you know KCL students strugggle in Georgetown? Did you see their transcripts or are you just assuming.</p>

<p>For you info, the History department of Warwick is not even that highly regarded. No one knows Warwick for History.</p>

<p>[University</a> Rankings League Table 2010 | Good University Guide - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines)</p>

<p>Obviously as Americans are usually parochial, it is much harder to exchange with outside schools. UK unis are more knowledgeable about quality outside their borders. I have said this earlier, America are generally more ignorant. Anything not American is inferior, same mentality you have.</p>

<p>Warwick is a top IB recruitment school too in UK, as Brown is in the US. I doubt USC and Tufts get the same proportion into IB as Warwick.</p>

<p>I doubt you would see a Georgetown grad in a top job in the City in London. Maybe the Ivies, not Georgetown or GWU UGs, but their MBAs grads maybe.</p>