Realistic expectations for admission

<p>Hey parents, have any of you set any limits on applications? I've been hearing about kids applying to a dozen or more schools and getting rejected by most of them. My son is starting work on the common app and I'm thinking about telling him not to bother with some schools. My brother has limited his son to 3 applications. I don't want to go that far, but these apps can be costly in both fees and time, so I'm hesitant to have him throw a bunch at schools where admission is like winning the lottery. My son is a strong student (3.8 unweighted in toughest curriculum, 33 ACT, good ECs) and his guidance counselor said he is qualified to apply to any school in the country, but seriously, how many apps to schools with admit rates of under 15% are reasonable? He has friends -- other top students -- who applied to a dozen or more schools last year and were rejected by most. He wants to go to a college where he'll be surrounded by other high achievers (he's an easy-going kid but the one thing that annoys him academically is being in class with kids who don't try very hard), so the more selective schools have appeal, but I know he'll be accepted in the honors college at one of our state flagships, and he would be happy to attend, so it's not like he'll have to go to the local CC if he's rejected by Chicago, Duke and Macalester. I'm tempted to tell him to just apply to the state U, Duke (legacy) and a max of three others he really likes. Opinions?</p>

<p>Every family is different. We went with the strategy of 3 safeties, 3 matches and 3 or 4 reaches. Any school with an acceptance rate of less than 20% was considered a reach, no matter how strong the applicant. For each of our 3 kids they were accepted at 1 or 2 of their reaches, so they had good choices.</p>

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<p>There is a big difference between being qualified and getting accepted because thousands of qualified students are denied admissions every year.<br>
I think that everyone’s situation is different. </p>

<p>If you have run your numbers through the financial aid calculator, and you are ok with what you see, that is one story. If you are looking for merit money to make your situation work, you may end up having to cast a wide net so that you can pull in some options.</p>

<p>If you have a true saftey in the mix, a true safety being a school that your son stands a great chance of being admitted to, if it was the only school that he was admitted to he would be happy to attend and the school is a financially feasible option for your family then start building the rest of your list.</p>

<p>Even with a 33 and a 3.8 gpa he is not a Duke and Chicago are reaches for him and everyone else just because there are not enough seats available for every “qualified” student that applies. Your son will need to apply to Duke in the ED round to get the bang from his legacy status. </p>

<p>In addition, the problem is that I see is that your kid is a BWRK with no appreciable hooks. At most of the schools you have listed, he will be in a sea of BWRKs with nothing that makes him stand out from the crowd. At the end of the day, colleges will chose classes that align with their institutional mission. The $64,000 answer is figuring out what the instiutional mission is from one year to the next.</p>

<p>I’m not sure why you’d set a fixed number unless cost of application is a serious consideration. How many does your son want to apply to?</p>

<p>I’d also recommend applying EA to all those on your son’s list that offer it. If he ends up with an admission to a school he’d like to attend at a manageable cost, he wouldn’t need to apply to any more. If not, there’s time to throw in more apps before the RD deadline.</p>

<p>I would look at your school’s naviance to see what’s reasonable. As for reaches, I would personally let my daughter apply to any school she wants to and not limiting her. 3 schools are kind of low. D1 applied to 11-13 schools(mostly UCs and 4-5 private schools). She was accepted to 4-5.</p>

<p>The real issue is how many lottery tickets you want to buy. I think the base is really two safeties (because in the worst case your child will feel better if he has a choice to make, and that will help him focus on the positive aspects of the school he chooses), and three or four matches, unless he gets an early acceptance at a school he’s completely happy with. Beyond that, it’s a question of how much you value prestige, and what you see other colleges offering that your matches don’t. It’s perfectly easy to construct an argument for applying to ten reaches, or two.</p>

<p>We let our son apply to two big reaches (less than 10% admitted, so we consider those big reaches for everyone), one reach, two match and two safety. They were all a financial match or safety. He was rejected by his two big reaches and accepted everywhere else. This gave him a nice pool of colleges to choose from and, in the end, he absolutely loves his college. Thank goodness!</p>

<p>Our theory was to find the safety schools first. If your son already has a safety in his flagship honors college and he’d be happy to attend, then he’s in a great position. We were in the some position and, boy, does it take the pressure off. We let him apply to another safety out of state, then built the list from there.</p>

<p>I’m a believer in two safeties. The best safety is a school that your kid gets into early - so if there are rolling admissions or early action schools in the mix you can have a kid with happy news before he’s sent off all the lottery tickets. </p>

<p>My older son (stellar stats) had two safeties and six lottery tickets. All his matches were lottery ticket schools. He got into two of the reaches and the two safeties. One of his safeties told him he was in before Thanksgiving, two of the lottery schools had EA, but he was deferred from both. (His stats were great, his essays were so-so - good for an engineer, but he’s no writer.) </p>

<p>Younger son had two safeties planned (one of which he loved), but also applied EA to two reach schools. He was deferred from one, but when an acceptance came through for the other he was able to drop one of the safeties, since an acceptance is the best safety of all! He ended up getting into three reaches and one safety and was rejected from three reaches. He could have had matches on the list, but he said he liked his safety better than any of the matches he considered hence the top-heavy list.</p>

<p>It’s really a matter of what you are comfortable with, but I’d never recommend only three applications. I admit this house does value a certain amount of prestige and our state universities really weren’t good fits for either kid. 2 safeties, 5 or 6 reaches worked out well for us. Neither of my kids were going to be devastated by a pile of rejections.</p>

<p>Others have said it, but it bears repeating: Spend time finding a safety that your son or daughter likes and that you can afford under the most pessimistic financial aid assumptions. Then look at the matches and reaches. Strongly discourage falling in love with any college, especially those that are reaches.</p>

<p>It took a huge burden off of all of us when this summer my rising senior daughter remarked as we were leaving the one safety school on our list that we could afford with no financial aid beyond Stafford loans, “I like this place.” It’s not her first choice, but if next April it’s the only financially possible alternative, she’s going to be enthusiastic about being a freshman there.</p>

<p>Beyond that, she can apply to as many schools as she wants (within the bounds of reason, of course). There are currently 10 on the list, including two real reaches, two matches, and six (at least for chances of admission) safeties.</p>

<p>Also, look at the safety’s for their honors programs and what they offer. Some of the honors programs are really good, and offer a lot to students, and some are just a marketing ploy. If he does not get into his top tier school, his safety may have a second choice honors college that will help meet his desire to be surrounded with intelectual peers and be challenged. After looking at that option, my son is much more excited about some of the honors college programs than the top tier schools.</p>

<p>^I agree. You can also look for good departments. My younger son’s safety was very strong in the major my son was considering (IR) and also had a great location for it (DC), that plus an honors program made it very attractive.</p>

<p>The problem with limiting the number of applications is that at the level you’re talking about, admissions are kind of quirky and unpredictable. One student may get into Northwestern but not Georgetown, another may get into Georgetown but not Northwestern, and a third, with similar qualifications, may get rejected by both. Applying to a larger number of colleges may enhance the student’s chances of getting into at least one of them because of the unpredictability of admissions at this level.</p>

<p>Another option: If being able to compare financial aid packages is not a consideration and if your son believes he would be happy at Duke, applying to Duke Early Decision might make sense. The legacy preference is strongest for Early Decision applicants.</p>

<p>It’s a personal choice. Our Ds were totally different - D1 wanted her life to be as simple as possible, got in ED to her 1st choice and that was it (she promised to apply to a safety the day after if she’d gotten deferred or rejected). D2 had a much more complicated set of plans, which included a set of auditioned arts programs (all of which had to be considered reaches) and another set of non-auditioned schools. She knew she needed the whole year to make her decision; she did apply rolling or EA wherever she could, and having very good but not stellar stats had schools of all levels of selectivity on her “regular” list. </p>

<p>At one point she wasn’t going to apply to reaches, but found she liked a couple enough and wanted to follow the “you never know unless you try” philosophy about academics as well as the arts. </p>

<p>She applied to “too many” schools, in retrospect (13). She could have done without one or two of the auditioned schools, and one or two of the others, which we sensed all along, but she really wanted choices. She got into all but her 5 most reachy auditioned and non-auditioned programs, and she had the experience that she wanted, of having lots of choices in the end. </p>

<p>At one point H and I decided that fighting with her about $200-300 worth of “extra” application fees was not worth shaking up her plan or her confidence. And in the end, she got a great scholarship to the school she’s going to, so we would have felt bad if we had quibbled over that cost.</p>

<p>I think the actual # of reaches that a student applies to is less important than their understanding that these are reaches and that they shouldn’t count on them. I think it’s much better to work under the assumption that you’ll likely get into your safeties and some of your matches, and that the reaches are a pleasant surprise but not anything to count on. If you have that attitude towards the reaches, then it doesn’t really matter how many you apply to. The problem I see on CC is that people apply to multiple reaches thinking that at least 2 of them are going to pan out. Much better to be pleasantly surprised than harshly disappointed, IMO.</p>

<p>I would also recommend more like 8 applications. The colleges are getting more applicants every year (maybe because of common app?) so it seems to be getting more difficult to get accepted. My DS was a 3.8/4.3 uw/w gpa, 34 ACT, several EC’s with depth (4 or more years), no legacy or hooks and here’s what he did:</p>

<p>4 Reaches: 1 Ivy, 3 top 20 (accepted to Ivy and 1 top 20, rejected at one, waitlisted at other which he chose not to stay on waitlist)
3 Matches: All top in-state schools, (accepted into honors programs at all three)
2 Safety: 1 was first school he showed interest in, and was an auto-admit, one offered possibility of full-ride. Accepted at both, did not get offered full-ride but had significant merit scholarships at both. This gave him two colleges he had acceptances to by December 1, which I can tell you is a good feeling and lowers the stress of the college acceptance waiting process!</p>

<p>Now as much as I was cheering him on, I didn’t have a clue whether he would be accepted to any of his reaches. But nothing ventured, nothing gained and we wanted him to shoot for the stars. It was an amazing day when he was accepted to the Ivy-his top choice school. </p>

<p>I think the key for my DS and us was that other than 1 top 20 that was recommended by his GC (the one rejection by the way), the full-ride hopeful (never visited) and one of the in-state schools he liked his choices. So that gave him a safety, 2 matches and three reaches he really liked. In otherwords like your saftey and matches because then you have options. </p>

<p>Apply to schools in all categories that they will be happy to attend.</p>

<p>I haven’t set limits; I would be dismayed if my daughter wanted to apply to more than 14, at most. But a lot of factors come into play: if your son would be happy at his state flagship honors school, and can be confident he’ll get in, he’s way ahead of most applicants at this stage, including my daughter. Since her state flagship doesn’t offer what she wants, the hardest job she has is finding that fabled “safety you love and will happily attend.” If you have one, then your matches and reaches can be fewer. If, as so many people seem to find, the prospect of actually attending your safety is only a shade better than not getting in anywhere, the matches and reaches become more vital, and if they are pretty selective, more iffy. So people apply to more. But as a recent thread has shown, the “right” number can be really debatable, because there really isn’t one right number. There are numbers that are ridiculously high, IMO, but I do understand the underlying fear. You really can’t argue, I think, that there’s no need to apply to six matches of similar selectivity and stats, since if you get into one, you’ll get into all–you might get into one, or two, but there seems no knowing which one. So you’re spreading your net wide, not because you think that statistically you’ll have a better chance of getting into one place if you apply to ten, but because it seems impossible to predict which place will accept you.</p>

<p>All,</p>

<p>I tend to agree with those posters who recommend against an arbitrary limit of applications, especially if the student is a strong candidate for top-tier schools with fickle admissions processes. The worst thing would be for the student (or parent) to regret the lost chances and to indulge in “what ifs” in ten years. </p>

<p>One question — a number of you mention that the OP’s legacy status at Duke has the most “bang-for-the-buck” in the ED round. Is that also the case for Legacy status at schools with SCEA?? That could make a difference for our D in terms of where to apply and how many apps to submit. Any insights?</p>

<p>Thanks!!</p>

<p>My D (ACT 34) doesn’t have any reaches or lottery schools. We’re fishing for merit aid and know it won’t be found at the most selective schools. So she’ll cast a wide net to 9 -11 really good schools and 2 safeties. </p>

<p>Our philosophy is that an extra $200 in apps may save us thousands in the long run. Extra work? Sure. That’s why she’s starting today.</p>

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<p>A couple cracks at this …</p>

<p>These kids applied to lots of schools and got rejected by a lot … which means they only got into a few … so if they had applied to less schools they likely would have had even less choices of where to attend … why would it good for your child to have less choices?</p>

<p>When your child goes to apply for jobs will advise them to apply for less positions especially the low-odds ones so they will get less rejections? Or will you tell them to cast a wide net and to shoot for the sky with their job applications? … why would it good for child to have less choices for college?</p>

<p>When your child goes looking for houses will you advocate looking at less or more houses? Again why would less choices me a good thing?</p>

<p>To me if a student is looking for merit aid, admission at low-acceptence speciality programs (like muscial theatre programs), or highly-selective schools a strategy of only applying to a couple reaches is way to make it very-very likely (like 80%) that the student attends a match or safety … instead the strategy should be more like 8-2-2 if the students wants a good shot at getting into one of those low odds schools. </p>

<p>A couple caveats

  • Completing that many applications is a lot of work and the student should prioritize the applications because by # 10-12 the quality may go down a bit
  • All those applications are expensive but to Monm3ToGo and I the cost of the applications (and allowing our kids to dream) was noise compare to overall cost of sending the kids to school
  • Strategic use of Early Action can really cut this list of 12 … lots of top schools have EA so a couple early acceptances allows the student to chop the original list a lot.</p>

<p>Three application is too few, especially if you want to compare financial aid packages. With your son’s stats, he would have a reasonable chance at schools like UChicago and should definitely apply if interested, IMO. To be on the safe side, having more than one safety school can also be a good idea, in case something doesn’t go as planned with the first one.</p>