I read the article but didn’t listen to the videos. I agree wholeheartedly that they don’t get sympathy from me. But…
If these students had sought out advice on CC, what would it actually have been? Most likely it would have been along the lines of don’t take on outrageous loans, but stay in federal limits.There are constantly threads that give the message, “well, what can your parents afford? Now add in your federal student loans and that is your price range.” Comments on federal loan limits are more similar to “that isn’t any different than buying a car; it isn’t much debt” instead of not recommending taking on student loans and staying well under parental budget. Combine that with @Demosthenes49’s summation in post 30, which is definitely the underlying message on CC, and students reading here probably don’t think twice about taking out their federal student loans.
We are anti-loan for our kids. Their options are limited and even moreso bc we won’t let them take out student loans. Zero regret for forcing them to stay inside into our tiny budget.
This linked thread refers to an article referring to a study finding that 43% of college graduates were underemployed in their first jobs out of college (i.e. in jobs where employers do not typically request a bachelor’s degree). There is variation by major, but even 29% of engineering graduates were underemployed (the lower percentage of all of the listed major groups).
If that is the case, then the financial risk of attending college is higher than is generally assumed, and that makes a strong argument for the case that all college debt should be avoided. However, that also means that even more students from low to middle income families cannot afford college at all, unless they take the financial risk of borrowing to pay for college. That can be even more of a waste of talent than is already the case.
I think my kids should have worked more and borrowed less while in school, but it was their choice. One is fine, oneis going to have to live very frugally in order to start paying her loans.
I think all of the students in the article wanted more luxury. They all got to live at home and could have worked more or spent less but didn’t do that. My niece lived at home her first year and worked a job she didn’t really like. She kept applying for better jobs, ones more in line with her major, but happened on one that worked out. She moved to DC, barely made enough to live on, and spent nothing on herself. Doesn’t have a car, walks to work, lives in a closet. After 2 years she’s doing much better and has a little more wiggle room in her budget.
I have to say I wonder about both the GPA and people skills of (most of) those who can’t find employment after graduating from college. I know some college grads I’d never hire for any position.
That makes me think if one has graduated with a decent GPA and can’t find a job it could be worthy of checking into “people skills” lessons somewhere - tact.
I’ll never be anti basic student loans for those heading off to college. Without them we’d never be where we are now. We paid ours off within 5 years and have reaping the benefits ever since. I’ve seen tons of students from school do similar things. College should not be solely for the wealthy or the tippy top qualifying for high merit aid. It can take some work to find a good affordable school, but it’s well worth the time put in. Some schools, esp for some majors, aren’t worth a dime. It can be worth it to pay more from one a desirable employer is known to hire from.
I’m totally against high student loans, esp for undergrad. Med school lad is racking them up at this point. We’ll see what happens. We’ve already had the “you’ll have to live frugally for a few years as a doctor to get those paid off before you get your whole salary” discussion and he’s paying attention to potentially eventually working somewhere that will assist him in paying off his loans. The good thing is he already has a couple of standing offers to be employed - any specialty - once he finishes residency (and he’s only in his second year of med school, but doing very well). These offers are from people hiring who already know him and what they can expect. The two things the lad never lacked were good people skills and the desire for perfection on any job. They are just as important as the degree for success in life.
All you have to do is read many of the threads here on CC to see why this is happening. Parents are buying into the “my kid deserves…” you fill in the blank, but in the case of CC it is “to go to his first choice college regardless of cost”. Its the self-entitled, lack of worth ethic generation, and they didn’t get there by themselves, they were brought up that way.
I have two mid-income friends who paid for OOS public schools for students that could have easily attended the state flagship with a much better reputation and graduation outcomes for nearly half the cost, think $25K vs. $40-45K. Both students took out full loans and both sets of parents took private loans. Neither had saved any money for college, no savings, no 529s, nothing. Both kids worked two jobs each summer to contribute.
Fast forward, one student is working minimum wage as an admin asst 3 years after graduation. Can barely make rent and student loans. Parents crumbling under their debt. Second student working full time, finished masters (more loans) and presently completing clinical phase. She’ll have a great job beginning September and will be able to pay her loans and maintain a home. Parents are in a better position to pay their loans than family #1 because they are not big spenders and live very modestly.
In neither case would I have allowed my kids to choose an OOS public when the instate is so highly ranked with a potential savings of $80K over the four years. But this is where their kids wanted to go. So they went. Is this society’s fault, hardly. This is Mom and Dad’s fault.
We opened the books and showed them our bank accounts and profit sharing… They were like cool I want to go here and hey I will need a car. Then I said this was “my” money for retirement etc not yours. I showed them both what we have for college and they are like “that’s not enough for 4 years”… Exactly I told them. We always planned on having some 529 accounts but knew we would pay as we go for college. 2 kids in and so far so good. They both have the knowledge. They are both very appreciative of what we are doing. They both are taking back some loans that if we can pay during their time we will but we want them to have some loans so they can create a budget after they are done with school. One kid will have it much easier then the other since he’s in engineering. They both work during school and put away their money for the most part. We want them to work and be able to spend also. Get the rewards of working but neither has taken advantage of it.
So yeah, the parents are partly to blame. The kids are a product of their environment.
My wife graduated 20+ years ago with $85K in loans in today’s dollars. I graduated at the same time with $25K in loans in today’s dollars. We got good jobs in a good industry. We paid them off in 6.5 years. It sucked. No major vacations and we skimped on everything.
No we have my D19. She has one offer where she can get out of undergrad with probably less than $5K of loans. The school isn’t in her top 4 schools. We are hoping some of her top schools come in with something. Just trying to get a good offer with little to no debt. We don’t want her to live like we did right out of school.
Could it be that, in many of these cases, the first time the high school senior has had to face cost constraints on any significant choice is choosing a college? I.e. his/her parents had previously provided every want (including things like expensive extracurriculars) without any mention about cost or that money may not be infinite?
Agreed. Along with the cc mantra of seeking “fit”; we should start beating the drums that OOS publics are almost always not worth it without merit aid or tuition reciprocity. Too many NJ kids have the 'anywhere but Rutgers attitude" so they’ll pay OOS rates for a neighboring public. How many OOS kids apply to UCLA (for sun and fun) and then coming begging for help on the spring when they find out what it costs.
The in-state publics seem like the simple choice in our state with UGA and GT being such good schools and many others (such as Georgia St, Georgia Southern, and Kennesaw State) that give options to Georgia residents of all academic backgrounds. I can understand the lure of some OOS publics, especially against a rankings obsessed narrative, but it was easy in my household (we told our kids by middle school what we were willing to pay which would keep them in-state unless they worked their tails off). I think having the conversation early made it easy for us and our kids have never resented us for giving clear guidance on what needed to be done to graduate college debt free.
Re: OOS publics being overly expensive, I want to add a different perspective. OOS publics would have been the least expensive option by far for my high-stats S18. We are full pay CA residents.
For example, S18 would have paid no tuition at Pitt, and UMD with merit money would have had a lower COA for us than any California 4-year public. Especially at Pitt, he also would have had much lower housing costs, both on campus and off.
I find it difficult to believe that a $300 a month loan payment is the final determinant that forced these student overseas. I would guess it fits more into the role of “finding fulfillment in my career” or “do what you love”. Jobs are a means to earn an income. Very few folks can honestly say they would do their job if they did not get paid. They might volunteer at doing something similar but not actually do the job.
These students borrowed the money and received the schooling they paid for. They are using that education to make a living outside the US. They should be held responsible for the loans and I would hope their passports would not be renewed until they get reconciled to what they owe. Honestly $300 a month is a car payment for an entry level used car. You can work multiple jobs if necessary, even low paying ones and afford that kind of payment.
I think this is a symptom of the fairly recent (last 10-15 years?) trend to focus on self actualization and saving the world instead of the harsh realities of life in the real world. If you can’t pay your bills find a different job or a second job. work hard pay what you owe and once you have the resources to make decisions other than that you have the right to do whatever you want.
Finally “Society” does not force anyone to do anything. the reason conventional wisdom says go to college is that overall a person with a college degree will earn more than one without. While true on a macro level it is not in any way indicative of if it will be true for any individual. there are always the exceptions, bad decision, the Bill Gates genius, etc.
The other side of getting that degree is the hard work that follows of getting a job (in your field of study or not) and working hard at it for years to make a living and pay your bills. We used to just expect this as part of the American culture but I for one fear that day has passed us by.
Sorry for the rant but stories like these really bother me as we work 50-60 hour weeks and second jobs to pay for our kids to be able to go to college and help set them up to work hard in the future to build their own lives.
Yes, with merit money; that has already been acknowledged. (If another state’s taxpayers want to buy your kid’s stats, that’s win-win for you.) But, it is not a different perspective.
No judgement from me. Lucky to live in a state with Zell Miller Scholarship (full tuition at all Georgia in-state schools for a 3.7 UW Georgia GPA and 26 ACT or 1200 SAT along with keeping your GPA up once in college) so being in the top 15-20 percent of students works here. Even more students get Hope Scholarship (~ 2/3 tuition for a 3.0 GPA in high school and college). Definitely not rich, but save a little, kiddos work hard, and it is possible to make it work in GA. I met a Georgia Tech student who has Zell Miller here in GA who is paying for his schooling on his own (Making a lot of money on engineering co-ops that he uses to pay most of his remaining costs along with working when at school) and was a year a way from graduating debt free. We all have to decide what we will and will not do to fund college and some of us get lucky along the way.
We’re middle class 50-percenters with a kid who is probably in the top 15-20 percent, but I’ll judge a little. I believe in paying your bills and accepting responsibility for your decisions. Fleeing the country because you don’t want to live the lifestyle that comes with $30,000 in student loan debt is not a positive character trait. Move to where the jobs are, get a second job, take the bus, eat bologna for a few years.
I’m all for philosophy degrees. Philosophy is great brain training and we need more critical thinkers. My problem is with someone who gets a philosophy degree then complains that they can’t get a job in their field. What, did he think someone was going to pay him to think deep thoughts? Did he honestly think a graduate degree in creative writing was going to lead directly to employment?
Do what the rest of us with non pre-professional degrees did; take any job you can get and work from there. The recession was a horrible time to be in a job search but there were still jobs for people willing to work hard, just not many of the attractive jobs for graduates available before and after that time.
What did these kids do for summer jobs? Did they work while in school? I got the feeling Chad thought he deserved a job simply by virtue of having graduated from college.
Whenever I hear unemployed philosopher, I can’t help but think of this famous scene in Mel Brooks’ History of the World, Part I, where the philosopher is trying to get an unemployment payment:
A few years ago we were looking for a receptionist. We had tons of sociology majors apply. A few explained that the job would be good to evaluate human interaction and behavior. It was not a receptionist job for them… I thought that was interesting. We didn’t hire them since we needed someone to be there longer them 3 months and we were not looking to be their stepping stone to a “real” job but thought it was interesting at least. They were all willing to take the lower paying job since they all needed to start paying on their loans