recommendation dilemma

Parents Forum
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<p>I am a parent with some knowledge of the admissions process, and that is the source of my dilemma. My son is in a very large public high school without much of a track record in terms of college admissions, but he himself has a good shot at doing well provided the elements are in place. I'm discovering a great lack if sophistication in this district that may make this difficult --not just for him but students overall. </p>

<p>My son gave the teachers his recommendation forms --and instead of giving the letters to him sealed, as requested, they gave the letters directly to him (as is their option), and so we read them. I was shocked: While these teachers praised my son to the rafters, and while they intended to be very helpful, their letters were so "off" what is required by the colleges they could not possibly really help (or hurt) him at the top schools. For instance, the English teacher recited his activity list and said wonderful things about him personally, but did not say one word about the advanced work he has done in English, the special papers he has written, or EVEN that she is his English teacher. His physics teacher did likewise. In other words, he has letters that use broad extremely positive --even off-the-charts-glowing-- generalities as they repeat his activity list with high praise; but as far as I am concerned, less praise and more comment on the many special things he has actually done in these classes, specifically, would be FAR more helpful, and appropriate. It may be difficult for me to approach these teachers, who mean so well, to ask for a correction. The truth is I do not even think they know the vocabulary the colleges are looking for --to get them to write appropriate letters would require some training or else someone putting words into their mouths. (True words, but words they might not otherwise think of.) Given these letters are supposed to be submitted waiving the right to see them, how can we really ask them to revisit this?</p>

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<p>Cloverdale, I don't know of a good way to approach the same teachers about doing a re-write. As you said, the recommendations are really meant to be confidential, and it would be difficult to return them with corrections without insulting them in some sense. Is it possible to ask other teachers for additional recs which could be used instead? If so, your son could provide them with a resume, which outlined academic honors and extracurricular activities. He could include a note which outlined specific accomplishments in their classes, thus providing them with concrete pieces of information which could be included. At my son's school, the kids are required to give the teacher a resume, and many teachers asked for something which summarized the student's experience in that teacher's class -- I think it just triggers specific memories for teachers. I hope this is helpful -- good luck!</p>

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<p>"He could include a note which outlined specific accomplishments in their classes, thus providing them with concrete pieces of information which could be included. "</p>

<p>This is a good idea for all students to do. No matter how much teachers respect and care about their students, the teachers are not going to remember in detail students' accomplishments in their classes like the students themselves will remember those things. It is a big help to teachers when students give teachers a note reminding them of that kind of information. Doing so isn't offensive or braggy: It's wise and helpful.</p>

<p>Otherwise, most teachers will end up giving students the kind of nonspecific recommendations that the OP's son got.</p>

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<p>Welcome to the problems of recs.......I think you need to find another way to get the things you want......say additional recs from an outside source who can write, will meet the questions......someone who has known your son for a long period of time. This could be a professional you have known in the community who can also speak to the school.</p>

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<p>unfortunately this is a new school for my son --he really has no other teachers in academic classes he can ask. It never occurred to me that these letters would be so broad --or that I would see them. He can get other letters from college professors he works with, to supplement these: he is doing dual enrollment, but that limits the letters he can acquire from high school teachers. It's a strange thing, because the letters are so positive, in fact, off-the-charts: they just are not appropriate or specific, and do not explain the rigor of his work. My other child went to an expensive private school where each letter was a little gem. The teachers there were trained in exactly how to write them. This puts these public school kids at such a huge disadvantage --it's not really fair. Most parents probably never get to see the letters --but this could explain the mystery about why some very stellar kids are so widely rejected.</p>

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<p>While you cannot completely avoid the kind of rec the OP's child got, there are some things you can do in soliciting effective recs. Besides giving the rec writer your activity/award resume, you need to include a cover letter. My kids spent a long time on these cover letters that were invidualized for each rec writer. The letter can describe their college plans and aspirations, highlight accomplishments they had in that teacher's class, anecdotes from that class or experiences with that teacher, strengths the student had in that subject, how you may have stood out in some way in that class, and so forth, and describe some points about yourself that you are hoping to get across in your application.....your attributes or qualities, etc....that you hope they may also speak to or shed light upon. Give the teacher various recollections from your experience in the class and remind him/her of what you accomplished or any vignettes, but also share what about yourself you hope that college will learn and if they can also comment on those to colleges. </p>

<p>Even with ALL of that, you can still get a teacher who does not put much effort into the rec or just writes them all the same...nice general comments that are not specific or anecdotal and just recount facts from the resume that do not need to be reiterated in the rec. We were able to read the recs here as well. In the case of the optional supplementary recs, my kids solicited three but planned on only sending two (not talking the academic recs right now). I'm so glad we did this. My younger D who was applying to extremely selective BFA programs in musical theater had asked her music teacher at school who she had for FIVE years in many capacities to write a rec for her (though asked others as well). She had this person for chorus, select choir, and this person also was musical director to all five musicals she had done there. My daughter had won two state awards in voice, was finalist in another state award, and had won a national award as well, had been leads in all the musicals, had been selected to the regional and all state choruses, had also been in the jazz band as a pianist and vocalist and had been the first student there to ever conceive of and direct two musical revue shows. I'm just sharing the capacity with which this teacher knew my daughter, had cast her, had chosen her many times to be soloist, had asked her to accompany the chorus on piano at the last minute in concerts when they were in a pinch, had askd her to step in to accompany all the auditioners for the musical, and on and on. </p>

<p>So, I look at the rec. It is so forumulatic. She obviously had a boiler plate rec she uses for chorus students and tweaked it slightly and changed the names on her computer. In fact, in one sentence, she left in the name of "Jessica" and my D's name is NOT Jessica!!! She regurgitated a few things on the resume...no new info. there) and never comments about my D being leads in the HS musicals since she was a seventh grader (was unusual) and she was applying to professional degree programs in musical theater, was not simply a chorus student. She really did not comment at all about her other than generalities you would for any student in class basically. A rec should have anecdotes and should discuss if the student stood out in some way or did something unusual, such as writing and directing musicals at the school, or had been the only kid from the school to ever win certain state or national awards or something like that. But nope, it was nothing like that. It was pretty useless and if anything, almost hurts for a competitive program to sound so ordinary and not very informative. We did not send this recommendation. </p>

<p>That said, many do not see the recs ahead of time and so recs like these go out and they don't help the candidate but would not really hurt them either as it reflects more on the writer. In the example I gave, my D had spent more time in writing a specific cover letter to this rec writer, than the rec writer had spent on the rec. The rec writer did not give the rec to my D by the date she had specified and when my D went to ask about it ,she had forgotten and gave her this printout the next day (which obviously was a minor revision of recs she has written for others). </p>

<p>So, I strongly advise the cover letters I described earlier and the activity resume but even with that, some rec writers simply are not good rec writers and are not aware of what colleges are looking for. My kids even wrote on their cover letters hinting at the kind of recs colleges needed (ie., anecdotes). You can only do so much. </p>

<p>For the OP, I do not think you can go back to these teachers and ask again. My D's chorus teacher likely thinks her rec went to the colleges but nope, it did not. What you can do, is ask two new people and use the cover letter approach I described above. Also, you can ask your GC if he/she knows which teachers at school are known to write efffecive recs. They often know as they often read the recs. Also ask around to others if they know who has written good recs at the school. You can be a very good teacher but poor writer. Or you can be somewhat lazy as I feel my D's music teacher (also was head of the music dept. in a fairly small school in which my D was in the choral, band, jazz band, and musical theater programs actively for five years and also had this teacher as her Teacher Advisor daily!). </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>I disagree that your son can't ask for changes in the letters! He was given them. The teachers know he's seen them. Perhaps he could say "I love the letter, but do you think you could add a paragraph about the work I did in your class?" After all, most teachers do these things on computers and can easily reprint the letter.</p>

<p>(And yes, I'm a teacher, and yes, I give copies of the recs to the students, and yes, I've responded when they asked for changes.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Also, you can ask your GC if he/she knows which teachers at school are known to write efffecive recs. They often know as they often read the recs.

[/quote]

I'll second this. The Guidance Counselor will see recs from teachers over the course of many years, usually. One caveat -- sometimes a wonderful rec will come from an unlikely candidate. Although the GCs often suggest recs from English or language teachers, I've heard of stunningly insightful letters coming from math or science teachers. If the student has a connection with that teacher, and was an outstanding student in that class, this would be a good option. Also, many colleges specify that they want an English/humanities type of recommendation and a math/science rec. My point, though, is not to dismiss the math or chemistry teacher if that is a class in which you excelled.</p>

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<p>live and learn --these are great ideas. In my son's case, he does not have many other options at the high school given his dual enrollment in a college program. I think the recommendations may just have to go out, but with other, supplementary recommendations. The more I think on it, the more I think it is likely foolish to waive your right to see a teacher letter --or for the college to require it. Given so many lacks in the rec writers themselves, students should have a chance to send letters that actually represent them. There is enough of a waiver in the counselor letter for the school to say what it wants.</p>

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<p>I just recently had the big meeting with the counselor and my S to prepare his senior schedule and go over everything to make sure he is on track. I have to say that I came away very unimpressed and, frankly, alarmed by the counselor. Granted, this is a fairly large public hs (450 per class), and it would be hard to know all the students, but the guy seemed totally clueless. He was unprepared for the meeting, not only did he not know my S from Adam, he had no idea of anything that my son has been doing at the school, even that he is currently tied for valedictorian. He began the meeting by asking if my S planned to graduate within the framework of "college bound curriculum". I nearly choked. I said, "If you will take a look at his transcript, you can see that he has taken the most rigorous curriculum and has A's in all of them." He said, "Yes, I see that, so I guess he wants to be a "Distinguished Graduate". My S is not a blend in the woodworks kind of guy, he is on student council, has played multiple varsity sports, is cited in the school paper regularly, etc. I am concerned that a major part of the application is the counselor rec. I copied and pasted Soozie's post above and plan to show it to my S, not only for the teachers rec's, but also for the counselor rec. I also told him after we left the office that he has until the end of the year to get to know the man. I would hate for his rec to be some formulaic, no personality letter, but I guess you just get what you get. I know that at his school all letters are sealed and you do not get copies. Maybe it would be best for our mental health to be clueless as to the letters contents!</p>

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<p>I read my recommendation, too. It was less than half a page, and all general praising statements. The recommendations that you were talking about may not help out son a ton, but they aren't going to hurt him either.</p>

<p>I think that few teachers write fantastic recommendations or emphasize exactly what you want them to, and I also think that it would be pretty impolite to ask the teachers to rewrite them, because they don't even have to give you one to begin with.</p>

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<p>Ag54, what you describe is appalling. Tied for valedictorian? GC not aware of that? I don't know how you contained yourself.</p>

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<p>"My other child went to an expensive private school where each letter was a little gem. The teachers there were trained in exactly how to write them. "</p>

<p>That's because due to the tuition that you paid, your child was able to have smaller classes and other perks that pay off on recommendations.</p>

<p>Colleges take into account the type of schools that students go to when the colleges consider recommendation letters. Colleges are not expecting gem letters from public school teachers who may have hundreds of students a day and public school GCs who may have hundreds of students ranging from college bound to those in remedial education.</p>

<p>Public school students can boost their chances of getting good reccs by giving teachers cover letters, brag sheets, copies of excellent papers and tests that the students did for the teachers' classes. Doing these things also helps with private schools. No one will remember a student's excellent work and activities as well as the student will.</p>

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<p>I have written recs as a teacher in a large public HS. In each, I have put personal remembrances, etc., but I have started to see a trend this year - besides the school form with honors, awards, classes, extracurriculars, etc., the kids are giving me a cover letter with info that they feel should be included in the letter based on what they believe the college wants to hear. In this manner, you are not putting down the teacher for the formulaic letter, etc., but giving guidance on where this particular school or scholarship places its focus. I think that your son can go back to the teachers with such a cover letter, and say that he was just about to send everything off when he found that the school really needed more info in the following areas, and that he realizes that it is an imposition, but could the teacher add these things, that it was his fault for not letting them know earlier, etc., but that without that he might not have a chance for admission. That softens the impact on the teacher by placing the "error" on your son's shoulders (even though he did nothing wrong), not theirs. Makes for a more effective relationship with someone that you need to keep on your side. Use honey and the letters will be rewritten in the manner that your son needs. The letter itself is wonderful, terrific, but these points need to be addressed...</p>

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<p>If this is a new school for your son, perhaps a teacher from his old school would be able to write a reference.</p>

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<p>Suggestion: is there ANOTHER teacher that really likes your son? He could go to this teacher with a cover letter and explain that when he went on college trips the colleges said they were looking for these kind of speciifics, and so he's giving the teacher some examples if the teacher wants to use them. Whatever the teacher thinks is fair. If there are no other teachers, he can first go to his GC and say the schools tell him he needs specifics and would it be an imposition on these great teachers to ask them to include a little more in their reccommendation ( he can then hand them the cover letter and hopefully the GC will smooth the way.)
To the original poster: your son should approach everyone. He is nearly an adult. You may be fuming behind the scenes, but you should stay behind the
scenes, unless you are very friendly with the guidance counselor.</p>

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<p>Cloverdale, I essentially got the same exact kind of recommendation from both of my teachers too. Although both of my recs are amazing, they definitely go off track. They totally delve deep into my extra curricular activities and go into great detail about that, while only touching on my academic achievements in their classes.... Well... i'm still using my recs, they're good. Besides, a college can't blame me for having teachers that can't follow directions lol.</p>

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<p>Ag54, I agree with Chocolate, I don't know how you contained yourself. It may be a large school but for your GC to not have any clue about a stand out kid in the class who is one of his advisees is appalling. I do not know how it works in your large school and why the GC and your son did not know one another previously. It is really too bad. While I did share the story of the music teacher writing an ineffective rec (which we did not use), it was really due to a combination of lack of effort and just no "know-how". But it wasn't due to not knowing my child whom she knew VERY well daily for five years in class, homeroom and ECs. Otherwise, I have to say that the teachers and GC who wrote for my kids DID know them well. Some people write better than others though. But our GC knew my girls since seventh grade (public school) and knew them VERY well. His letters about them made me cry in fact. So, I can't complain on that count. </p>

<p>But even though these writers knew my kids well, my kids STILL did very specific cover letters to each one and geared these to that particular writer. The GC shared all the recs with them including his report. He even asked on his report if there was anything we felt needed to be added. For instance, my younger D asked him to comment on her being an early graduate as he did not mention about that or give some validation from the school end on that matter and it just was an omission and he did add something in about that on his end. The kids' cover letters to the GC also mentioned what things about themselves they'd be highlighting to the colleges and so perhaps the rec writers would be speaking on the same "message" but from their perspectives. The GC came up with his own anecdotes. For the teacher writers, my kids reflected back on some moments and projects they had done in those classes and so forth. If I had been the recipient of such a cover letter and activity resume, I would have found it quite helpful in composing my letter. </p>

<p>But as I said, you can do all that and still get someone who just doesn't know how to write an effective recommendation. At least in my kids' cases, the one thing going for them was that the people truly knew them well. </p>

<p>A rec letter that is glowing but not too specific is not going to hurt the candidate. It won't reflect poorly on the student and will just be obvious that the rec writer was not that effective or informative of a rec writer. It won't hurt. It just might not be an additional "sell" of the student. But if you have two teacher recs, one GC report, and two supplemental recs, hopefully at least one of these is a really well written and effective one. Likely, that is the case. If you feel the teachers or GC at your school write poor recs, really work on getting good supplemental recs from a few people and then choose amongst these which to send to college. </p>

<p>I think EvitaJr's advice is very good and I like the diplomatic slant. I hadn't quite thought of that but I like it!
Susan</p>

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<p>And just for a change of pace, can I tell you how one of our teachers did letters of recommendation? He was the only 11th grade English teacher, and said he didn't have time to write so many of them. So any student that wanted a letter from him had to write their own then he would sign them.</p>

<p>My daughter passed on that . . .</p>

<p>Peg</p>

<p>P.S. Thankfully, he has since retired.</p>

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<p>Choc. and Suze. Yes it was hard to not say anything to the gc. In my mind I was trying to reconcile the fact that he has too many kids to know one in particular, but it kept nagging at my mind that he had obviously not even looked at my son's grade report or transcript to see what kind of student he is. It is nice to know that a non personal rec will not hurt a candidate, but it sure won't help either. We will try to be proactive about this and hope for the best. There is a ton of great information in these posts and we will be sure to use all of it.</p>

<p>At this point, my S is on a mission to get to know the gc. After I showed him an application and the importance of the gc rec he realized the importance of this. He stopped by yesterday, ostensibly to talk about a certain class for next year that requires a teacher ok. He is learning the art of schmoozing. Never too early to learn that! His teacher recs should be good, they seem to know him well, but I will definitely have him use all of these wise suggestions of compiling information and writing a cover letter hinting at what the colleges are looking for in the rec.</p>