<p>jb,
yes. To give a hint my daughter averaged 22 hours of credit/semester for 5 years to complete the double degree. Don’t forget music degree hours can involve a lot of work; e.g., hours of time/week for a credit or two for orchestra performances and rehearsals. Drop out rate was 2/3rds of the students who started. Many lasted 2 or 3 years before burnout.</p>
<p>My son is not from one of the “big” programs and is only an amateur musician (did not apply to any audition programs). His 2009 degree is from the Audio Arts & Acoustics program at Columbia College Chicago in *live" (not recorded) sound. (The focus makes a big difference in this field, apparently.) He works as an independent contractor for a local sound/lighting company and has done installation work for several Chicago venues, sound (various positions) for concerts and events locally, regionally, nationally and internationally (ranging from community theatrical performances to really welll known performers) and he has loaded more than his fair share of trucks in the process. His network of contacts ensures that he now can almost always be as busy as he wants to be, but he’s at the point where he would like to find something with benefits and a more predictable paycheck. That said, he’s doing better than many, if not most, of his cohort.</p>
<p>I think it’s worth noting that several programs nowadays in music tech/recording (Michigan, Carnegie Mellon, Miami/Frost, to a slightly lesser extent JHU/Peabody) also have a strong focus on engineering as well, and that the career prospects in these fields are much better than those for a freelance recording engineer. The programs I listed all have different names and varying degrees of focus on instrumental study, but all share strong coursework in music theory, recording, and math/physics/engineering. I know that the programs at Michigan and Miami have sent graduates to work at Avid, JBL, Bose, Dolby, and Shure, among others…which basically reads like a who’s who of top names in the audio industry. It’s less on the artsy side of things, but spending 4 years studying music and audio recording, then hopping off to Avid to program the next version of Pro Tools or Sibelius sounds pretty nice to me. ;)</p>
<p>Of course, then you have to ask whether one might be better served by pursuing a traditional electrical/computer engineering degree, but if one wants to study music recording with a better shot at a stable career after college, these appear to be pretty nice options. I just recently spoke with a professor at Michigan who gave me a list of where recent graduates of Michigan’s Performing Arts Technology program worked…the list ran the gamut from freelance recording engineers in NYC to car audio system developers for Bose, so clearly there’s a much wider range of things you can do with a degree like that than with a purely technical recording degree.</p>
<p>RoKr, </p>
<p>I would agree with almost everything you have said. Engineering training along with the more usual audio technical training opens more doors for different types of careers. There is another factor as well. Schools which are very selective, admit high achievement students and challenge them with rigorous programs will graduate students who are in demand. I think it is like getting a degree in business. Grads from the local college have one set of opportunties. Grads from Harvard business school or Wharton have another broader set of opportunities.</p>
<p>^Yes, and in this case it can be like the difference between Umich’s Ross school of business and a general business degree from a mediocre directional. The tough part for kids interested in this type of work is that several programs cater to an emphasis (commercial studio) that no longer exists per se.</p>
<p>My son is in the program at umich to which Rockr refers, but is actually not focused on studio engineering. Some of his favorite grads who’ve visited actually work in the game
industry, where the combination of programming, composing, interactive and recording is a solid fit. Another works sound in the film industry. Etc.</p>
<p>Overall, AES estimates growth in the industry to be 6 percent (about twice the norm) and mid range salaries at 56k. Compared with an electrical engineer, the midrange is more like the eecs staring salary range. So, if one is interested strictly in vocational prospects, sure, take electrical engineering. And while you’re at it, hey, if you’re a music performance major, just skip it and study arts administration instead because we all know there are more jobs for those 
Or take marketing instead - Lady gaga dropped out of Tisch, why shouldn’t you? </p>
<p>It’s a fine line here before we start to diminish the intrinsic value of a degree. There are many ways today for a talented person to develop their craft. If you’re lucky, you’ll get to use your craft one way or another to survive. If not, hopefully you’ve gleaned transferrable skills that will aid you vocationally. But the degree itself is intended to expand and develop yourself in an area you love, and it’s value is the knowledge you carry around in your head, and the enjoyment you derive from that knowledge.</p>
<p>My son is also really good at math and physics and English – with very high ACTs to back that up. But we don’t find ourselves having these kinds of conversations about the value of a physics degree or a math degree or an English degree. Why is that, exactly? There are lots of crappy math and English and physics degrees out there too I think the difference is that people don’t expect vocational results from a BA. Which one is more ready for the workplace – a general BA student or a specialized BS or BFA? The latter are professional degrees, but the answer of course would be the individual makes the difference. But the kids pursuing specialized degrees at least have a focus, and had to compete among many others. So as a self-selecting group, they may be a little more results-oriented than the average student!</p>
<p>I would not personally counsel ANY student to go $200,000 into debt for ANY undergraduate degree today.
But be careful not to diminish the value of a strong program for a talented student. Because irrespective of what the statistics say about employment,</p>
<p>^…the point is that only by pursuing something you love will you ever have the chance to actually DO what you love for a living ;)</p>
<p><<<one of the English degree people here! I completely agree with you kmcmom.</p>
<p>The recording engineer thing , though I have done it for many years along with being a musician is not so cut and dried as a music career. People play music because they HAVE to. I tell people if they are thinking about a music career or something else that maybe music isn’t for them. There’s too much BS ( and I don’t mean Bachelor Of Science ) involved with the business end of music for the career to be pursued lightly. It’s a death sentence, financially but a beautiful way to go. The concept that recording music ( as opposed to dealing with more informational audio deliveries like TV and internet stuff ) for a living being sold as a responsible make money at a job type profession is bizarre to me. It shouldn’t be marketed that way. Being involved in serious music production is a calling not an occupation. Nobody with any sense puts up with the long, long hours, the exiguous pay, absence of health benefits and the total lack of job security unless they are just wild and crazy about music and can’t live a day without recording it. If recording music is what your kid HAS to do the college money might be better spent on a good pair of mics, a mic pre amp, a laptop and some index cards to put ads up at schools for recording services offered and then let them have at it.</p>
<p>^parents of kids who love music technology have likely already invested in all the foregoing during high school! In portfolio admits, you have to submit multi tracked work, after all ;)</p>
<p>If you don’t tell a singer to buy an aural theory manual and study at home instead of college, why on earth would you tell a kid interested in music production to buy equipment and stay home? </p>
<p>This DIY argument isn’t WRONG per se - I know lots of talented programmers, for example, who learned to do by doing alone and make a great living. But I generally wouldn’t tell most kids to eschew a CS degree, nor would I tell musicians who love production technology that pursuit of a degree is worthless, which seems to be a bit of a theme here.</p>
<p>On the contrary, the skills developed in a good program are highly transferrable in a variety of performance and media production roles. </p>
<p>Put another way, the pursuit of music tech/engineering/programming is no more worthless than a music degree or 90 percent of undergraduate degrees (I’ll give engineering and possibly pre-med a pass, but only on vocational grounds ;))</p>
<p>And this does not mean I think these degrees are actually worthless; I’m just trying to illustrate within the parameters of the theme!</p>
<p>However, there are questionable commercial style/private programs, just as there are for
musicians, filmmakers, web developers etc. that are probably not a great vocational
investment. Students have a hard time finding reputable programs or distinguishing a solid program from a tech mill.</p>
<p>The first clue should be that it’s not easy to get in, there’s significant competition, high math and science stats requirements, and a portfolio requirement.</p>
<p>The theme of this thread seems to be that somehow pursuit of music performance</p>
<p>my other D is interested in this field, but she’s only a HS junior right now. She is really into this stuff and apparently she’s pretty good at it. She mentioned UCSD because she worked part-time last summer and the owner of the company went there. (this was at a local recording studio) </p>
<p>are there any other school within driving distance of UCSD that she should consider? (driving distance = 8 hours or less)</p>
<p>kmcmom- what might be said is that the degree is pretty useless when it comes to finding a job in the audio production field BUT the things you learn getting that degree (if you are in a good program ) are valuable and transferable assets. Being of a certain age I know engineers that became highly successful in audio fields that weren’t even invented when they went to school. The basics of sound and physics etc they learned in school allowed them to take the new tech and run with it. Great ears an open mind and a solid understanding of how things work is more important than knowing how to run a big board.</p>
<p>Californiaharp, my son was admitted to UCSD’s electronic music program, but chose Loyola Marymount Univ’s Recording Arts program (housed in their film school). It is a great program that accepts 10-15 students a year, and places their students in all kinds of internships in LA. Check it out!</p>
<p>SJTH,</p>
<p>Thanks! Will look into it.</p>
<p>Question for SJTH-- DS was looking at Loyola Marymount admission site and couldn’t find where it talked about additional materials needed to apply to the Recording Arts major. He found that a portfolio was needed for the animation major but nothing for Recording Arts. Do you know where on their website he might find that? I am thinking that if they only take 10 - 15 students per year there must be some kind of supplement? Thanks</p>
<p>Idahomom, my son submitted an Arts portfolio and resume with his Common App., as well as a recording of a couple of songs he’d composed and described the software (and hardware) and process he went through. Other than that, there is an additional essay regarding the creative process that they have to submit for the RA program.</p>
<p>SJTH,</p>
<p>You mentioned UCSD’s program has 10 to 15 students per year. Do you know if it’s mostly male students? D is very into this and she is very good, according to people she has worked for. </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>^ No, that was Loyola Marymount’s program. I think it is mostly male, but I don’t think that should stop your daughter if she has a passion for it! I don’t know the demographics for UCSD’s Interdisciplinary computing and the arts - music program, but here is the link: </p>
<p>[Department</a> of Music : ICAM Major](<a href=“http://musicweb.ucsd.edu/ugrad/ugrad-pages.php?i=103]Department”>http://musicweb.ucsd.edu/ugrad/ugrad-pages.php?i=103)</p>
<p>Californiaharp, my son is in a similar field (not in CA though) and typically there are very very few women in his program. Eg. maybe 1 in 20.</p>
<p>This is actually a hook, because there is actually a concerted effort to attract more women to the field/programs, according to my son’s (former) department head, who wrote a lot of papers about same.</p>
<p>I think your D will find that most audio programs regardless of focus are primarily male populated. The few women in my son’s program were among the best there and they certainly were courted by the department.</p>
<p>The audio engineering field is almost entirely male. Based on my Ds experience this can have some advantages and some serious negatives. Being a female might enhance some employment opportunities. The enhanced opporunities are likely to be PR type jobs with the more serious engineering jobs going to males. Also being a female in a male dominated field can have some serious negatives; e.g., snide comments, overt biases, and social isolation, etc.</p>