Regarding O Levels

Student Lounge International Students
61

<p>keygp - your welcome! good luck wit your admissions too.</p>

<p>Just Wondering: Am I the only one who wants to show off after getting into somewhere prestigious?
Don't you just want to smack your butts at the those people's faces who thought you'd never get in and those people that would always discourage you??
If I get into Harvard (doubt), I am soooo going to rub it in their faces and make sure that they get the clear idea that I got in and they didnt (even though they didnt apply)!
HAHAHAHA Yeah.......so.. is anyone else gonna do that?</p>

<p>Oh but that's not the only reason I'm applying. Happy and good education is important too :)</p>

<p>I hope the best for the people that applied this year!! even though you'll get your letters in april or something next year. I'm so excited for you guys! After you guys get into your dreamschool, make sure you rub it good in their faces before you leave your country! Oh but I'm going to thank them as well - for encouraging me.</p>

<p>Yes this is very out of topic. SORRY!</p>

62

<p>keygp: "if 'getting an education' meant that you put down jjc and pjc this way, it doesn't say very much about WHERE you are educated, does it? Would getting into Harvard suddenly change that for you? Would a much <em>lesser known</em> (not the same as meaning 'inferior') college change that for you?"
no idea wtf u rtalking about.
seeker: "and i think wukong meant simply that the quality of education and intellectual culture in JJ, PJ et al. is inferior/lacking. that's not the same as saying every student in those JCs sucks."
thx that's my point. OF COURSE TEHRE ARE SOME WONDERFUL GENIUSES WHO HAVE TO SUPPORT THEIR COMATOSE PARENTS AND BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND HAVE TO JUGGLE 3 JOBS AND STUDIES BUT STILL GET A PRESIDENTS SCHOLARSHIP. but my point is that the average student, the oopportunities, etc etc in jj as compared to say rj are of lower quality
supergirl: if ur giogn to be a self-righteous bitch ur whole life dont see how u gonna survive</p>

63

<p>wukong: Every JC student is working towards the same qualification: an A Level cert. In the end of the day, it will not make any difference which JC one attends - it’s his results that matter. Is there a need for elitism at all? Your air of superiority and ignorance is truly pathetic. I know plenty of people from the so-called “less prestigious” schools who speak way more intelligently than you.</p>

64

<p>very well, would any of u happen to be from any of the bottom 10 jcs? guess not.
in which case, could u kindly tell me why u chose to go to whichever top jc u r in? your answer will be exactly what prompted me to say that "jj and pc suck."</p>

65

<p>"Is a 'top' school/college necessary an instituition that must equate with giving 'quality of education'?"</p>

<p>keygp: no. but a school where students largely don't bother with studies, whose teachers can't find a way to teach these students properly, and which doesn't have programmes to identify and develop special talent - i would consider that school lacking in 'quality of education'. i think it's quite clear that this kind of situation is more likely to occur in a lower-ranked JC.</p>

<p>wamdue: isn't there a possibility that people choose to go to schools, JCs and unis for more than the prospect of doing well in the exit exams? being from certain schools has an inherent value in itself - advantages in employment and so forth. i think people are justified in choosing a school on this basis. i don't take issue with your criticism, i'm just highlighting a side point.</p>

<p>man, this is so singaporean. let's stop it.</p>

66

<p>Is JC : Junior College?
What is JJ JP PC RJ?</p>

<p>"being from certain schools has an inherent value in itself - advantages in employment and so forth. i think people are justified in choosing a school on this basis."</p>

<ul>
<li>YUP that is why I want to go to 'elite' schools.. and other reasons too. But ^ that reason is my parent's MAIN reason for me to go to elite schools.
And personally, I think prestigious schools have a better "quality of education" then JC's or whatever you guys are talking about.</li>
</ul>

<p>"but a school where students largely don't bother with studies, whose teachers can't find a way to teach these students properly, and which doesn't have programmes to identify and develop special talent- i would consider that school lacking in 'quality of education'. "
- I AGREE on that too. And I'm sure thousands of others will too.</p>

67

<p>noFX: heh, thanks for agreeing with me. i was referring to schools in Singapore (JC = junior college, equivalent of grades 11-12) but what i said could apply anywhere, as your post showed.</p>

68

<p>Hey all Singaporeans, just a friendly suggestion - please don't use abbreviations that no one but Singaporeans (or those familiar with our system) would understand - at least not in a general thread like this one (unless someone starts his/her own Singaporean thread! =D ).</p>

<p>In the Singaporean system, after 4 years of secondary school (grades 7-10), students would sit for the O-level exam, then move on to junior college (grades 11-12), and sit for the A-level exam after 2 years.</p>

69

<p>It just seems that everyone agree in a way or another that 'quality of education' (broadly) means better teachers, better system, better management, and obviously better 'name' etc</p>

<p>What about the quality of the students the 'top' schools produce??? I have not yet heard anyone mention that. Don't you think it's important too? Surely, an instituition that provides so-called 'quality of education' should have some quality students to show? Yes, majority of these students do well in the exams, but the whole point in my earlier posts, is really to say that students at the 'top' schools may graduate as competent academics in their field of study, but if after getting all the good teachers, good systems etc, you still end up talking like wukong with such stupidity in general conversations, isn't that very sad?? </p>

<p>So, 'getting an education' is not just about about doing well in school and making it to 'top' schools. </p>

<p>While it is very true that an education from a school/college with a name will help us in job seeking - do we actually imagine that all other non-name schools graduates will be jobless when they graduate?</p>

<p>Let's look at some facts:
1. There is no data that shows that graduates of overseas 'name' colleges have a much lower percentage of unemployment upon graduation, compared to the local U (at least in Singapore it is the case). If anything, graduates from NUS/NTU are more likely to find jobs quicker simply because they are in Singapore and are immediately available for interviews. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Promotion opportunities. If you think an employer will promote you just because you are a Harvard graduate, think again. If you think a colleague/peer who used to attend a non-name school will never be better than a Harvard graduate in similar jobs aftter 5 years in industry,think again!! Bottom line is - if you are really smart and know your stuff, you'll move ahead anyhow even if you went to XYZ schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Salary. If you think that your starting salary will be higher if you are a Harvard graduate, think again! Truth is, HR policies across all companies (in Singapore) pays between $100-$200 more for 1st class graduates, whether your degree is from Harvard or from XYZ college (they don't really care you know. You mean you think they'd be ga-ga all over you because you went to RJ or VJ??). And, <em>hold your breath</em> some polytechnics graduates starting salaries are higher than graduates!</p></li>
<li><p>Last but not the least, gone are the days when companies make the distinction between a diploma and a degree holder. Nowadays, employers are more than willing to consider diploma applicants for a 'graduate job'. That is how much employers value the Polytechnic education (or in wukong's terms - that is how much employers value f-up students from lousy schools rather than HIM). Shocking? But it's true.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>It just seems that no convincing 'reasons' have been given for wanting to go overseas to 'top' name colleges (apart from NoFX's honesty in wanting to show off) Are people (in Singapore) just blindly following the crowd? I highly suspect this is the case.</p>

<p>Just in case anyone take offence with this post, I would like to remind that these are just my opinions. You don't have to agree of course. It's up to you :)</p>

70

<p>keygp: well said, I agree completely with your point about the kind of quality People a school produces. If we're talking about character building and some community spirit/consciousness, then I don't think a ranking of schools necessarily accurately presents the quality of education. Many people from elite schools in Singapore that I have met are either very ignorant about the lives of their peers from less fortunate backgrounds, or very dismissive of them. Generally, elitist people are snobbish and inward-looking, either by choice or by circumstance. </p>

<p>If your school teaches you to look down on other schools like jj or pj (why do we keep using these colleges?heh.) then I think you should rethink the quality of education your school provides. </p>

<p>That said, I would like to say that it is probably because of an elite community (made up of teachers from top schools, students from top schools..etc.) that forgets about a larger community that we live in. Most of it is possibly sad ignorance. The people from jj or pj aren't Real people to them, but a mere concept, or a stereotype. </p>

<p>wukong: wrong! I'm from a 'bottom 10 jc' I suppose, not hc, rj, vj, nj, tj. Why did I not choose to go to rjc even though I could? Why did I not choose to go to hcjc even though I could, and even though my friends were all there? It's precisely because I knew I would get a more holistic education, with less elitist competitiveness and a better community where I am now. And I made the choice I am happy with, because it is proven time and again that I was right in my fears two years ago.</p>

71

<p>couldnt find the rankings but this is a rough list of the bottom 10.
if u couldve gotten into rj/hc/vj but chose to go to these, well done. i am an elitist moron.
anderson
cj
innova
jj
meridian
ny
pj
sr
tampines
yj</p>

<p>it's funny how i say "they suck" and immediately everyone pounces on me saying oh, elitist, unappreciative *sshole. (the govt led by our dear MM is obviously elitist, esp with regard to education. whether or not education ought to be the way it is now in singapore is a debate that should be carried out somewhere else. u can be sure i'll be there if u want to discuss it.)
maybe i should have rephrased it in slightly more euphemistic terms: they are "intellectually challenged"
let me use an analogy. if ur a footballer where do u want to play?? in the s-league or the epl??? ignoring ur salary, endorsements.
obviously u want to compete with the best, mingle with the best, be the best that u can be. same thing.
its not about the pay u get from going to harvard vs going to nus.
it's the whole environment, ur 4 years there, who u interact with, the perspectives u gain etc.</p>

72

<p>I won't dispute that in terms of academics, RJC and HCJC are superior to PJC and JJC. Students at top JCs are students who get six and seven points. But you, Wukong, speak of "perspectives u gain" (in schools like RJ and HC) and I have to ask, what are these perspectives? Does a student from a "sucky JC" (in your words) lack perspective and insight because he/she didn't do more TYS questions?</p>

<p>Having spent equal amounts in schools from both extremes of the spectrum, I can tell you that there isn't much difference. In terms of academics and scoring distinctions, "elite schools" are definitely superior to "sucky schools". The students are more driven and work harder to get those As. However, that's all that ditinguishes the two types. In no way do I want to imply that "elite schools" are nothing but schools with a brand name. Their reputation as top schools are well-deserved, as proven by their excellent track records or churning out entire cohorts of straight-A students. But, I honestly have to wonder what this "perspective" and "intellectual culture" that you're talking about is. </p>

<p>Do you honestly think the O Levels are any gague of intellect or quality of thought? That view strikes me as incredibly puerile, at best. The O Levels really are about pure mugging and TYS. The O Levels are a measure of hard work and commitment.</p>

<p>As for intellectual culture, I will tell you that I have made some good friends from both "sucky schools" and "elite schools", all of them incredibly bright. Proof that it has nothing to do with the school they are from. True, in "sucky schools" you find some people who are not as bright and insightful. But you find them in equal numbers in top schools too. </p>

<p>In my honest opinion, as much as my education at an "elite school" has enriched me, a pet peeve of mine was that people tend (note: tend to be, not all) to be more pretentious and there is a greater atmosphere of pseduo-intellect. (Perhaps, people feel a need to try harder, being in a school of ostensibly "superior intellectual enviroment") I would hardly call that enriching or enjoyable, but perhaps that is precisely the kind of thing that would appeal to someone like you.</p>

73

<p>You are my hero, absolutelt. I love this thread. Makes me proud to be a Singaporean. Ah hem. </p>

<p>The bottom line is, education is what you make of it. I've met my share of ****tards from a whole spectrum of institutions. </p>

<p>I think the Singaporean mentality of worshipping 'brand-name' schools should be discouraged, and it is. Duh, that's why the government removed the whole ranking system this year. They've realised that there's more to life than just mugging for a paper and getting an A. </p>

<p>However, I do agree with wukong that there are stereotypes we associate certain schools with, because they tend to be true. </p>

<p>The thing is, as I said up there, is that if you choose to define whoever you meet by the school they went to, then you are a retard.</p>

74

<p>keygp - your arguments seem to assume that everyone going overseas is coming back to Singapore to seek work, which is a pretty flawed assumption in the first place. i assure you that many are seeking both the experiences of living overseas and the employment opportunities there (with reference to non-bonded students). and the scholars won't need to find work initially. there's the prestige/'showoff' factor that you acknowledge as well, which is probably a motivation for most people to some degree. so is it really the case that people are 'blindly following the crowd'? or are you simply railing against the choice of prestige/showing-off as a factor in most people's decisions, as seems to be the case?</p>

<p>nanaa said:
"That said, I would like to say that it is probably because of an elite community (made up of teachers from top schools, students from top schools..etc.) that forgets about a larger community that we live in. Most of it is possibly sad ignorance. The people from jj or pj aren't Real people to them, but a mere concept, or a stereotype."</p>

<p>i would like to point out that, if the above is generally true, then so is the converse: people from JJ/PJ have skewed views of RJ students, who aren't real people to them - just mere stereotypes, arrogant elitist snobs who disdain them, or muggers without a life. it cuts both ways. you have snobs and stereotypes everywhere.</p>

<p>absoluteIt said:
"In my honest opinion, as much as my education at an "elite school" has enriched me, a pet peeve of mine was that people tend (note: tend to be, not all) to be more pretentious and there is a greater atmosphere of pseduo-intellect. (Perhaps, people feel a need to try harder, being in a school of ostensibly "superior intellectual enviroment") I would hardly call that enriching or enjoyable, but perhaps that is precisely the kind of thing that would appeal to someone like you."</p>

<p>firstly, you seem to be attributing my words to wukong, but no matter. i think it's sad that some Singaporeans seem to downplay or ridicule the fact that some people enjoy intellectual environments. i'm not referring to intellectual or artistic pretensions; i'm talking about genuine (sub)cultures of exchange and discussion on more theoretical, artistic and/or macro topics. such cultures, i assert, are significantly more likely to exist in 'top' schools. i hope these are not what you're referring to, because they're perfectly valid and, indeed, should be encouraged.</p>

<p>discombobulated said:
"The thing is, as I said up there, is that if you choose to define whoever you meet by the school they went to, then you are a retard."</p>

<p>completely agreed. applies to students from 'top' schools and otherwise.</p>

75

<p>Hahahha I don't even know which side everyone's on now. I don't even know which side I'm on. Ok, here's my perspective of things:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Most people prefer 'elite' schools because of the oppurtunities it gives them. And also due to their 'name'.</p></li>
<li><p>'Quality of Education' is all about having fun while we are still at school, getting high, low, same grades, getting excited for exams, getting nervous for exams, having fun while you learn, getting *ed off at teachers while you learn, getting inspired by people and inspiring others.
I know for a fact that both my parents miss this oppurtunity that we have. They had to live through corporal punishment, bigbigbig expectations, blah blah. This is why they let me free so I can be happy while I learn.</p></li>
<li><p>Every school may have stereotypes such as 'elite' schools with 'snobby' kids and 'sucky' schools with 'dumb' kids. But it doesnt neccessarily mean that EVERYONE in that school is DUMB or EVERYONE in that school is SMART or EVERYONE in that school is HAPPY or EVERYONE in that school eats POO.</p></li>
<li><p>Sometimes, people can't help but to 'follow the crowd'. Many many many people in the world gets influenced. My ex-besty was a bright cheerful smart girl and now she's a hard stoner, a bum on the streets, no job, dropped out of school - because she was INFLUENCED by her new friends.
My other friend used to like rap. Now he was INFLUENCED by me and now, he likes punk.
I, myself, was pretty stupid in school, I didn't really care about school but I was INFLUENCED by my new friends and now, I'm one of the smartest people in my school.
EVERYONE can get INFLUENCED at times, good or bad, it's not a bad thing to 'follow the crowd' because that's what us humas are like!</p></li>
<li><p>In my opinion, if I was to get plastic surgery all on my face, I would not go to some surgeon who graduated from XXX University. I would rather go to someone who's from HARVARD. They may have the same degree, they may have the same knowledge, they may have the same office, they may wear the same clothes, but I would rather go to the harvard guy.
Also, if I got into Princeton and if a friend got into PPP university, I'm sure that most people would be like 'OMG u got into Princeton!' then, "OMG you got into PPP uni!"
I THINK going to a reputable school gets you the better reputation.</p></li>
<li><p>I dont know about the Singaporian educational system but i'm getting a VIBE here that singaporians are competitive? Competition is okay. WIthout competition, we'll all be snails. But TOO much competition *es me off.
My friend is rich. Rich rich filty rich. Her mum is posh. Posh like poshposh. Her house is a mansion. A mansion castle mansion. Here's the problem - my friend doesnt like being 'rich'. This is because of her mum. She makes my friend look good at ALL times, in the streets, at school, wherever, so her mum can get a good reputation - so her friends would be like - "dear, you got such delightful children, i'm so jealous of you!" The mum's friends are also filty rich. They alll competite against themselves: who has the most money, who is the prettiest, who cooks the best, who has the best family, blah blah. It's disgusting when you see them, talking to each other - they all secretly hate each other but that's competition for you.
This is like school also. Some kids are so WEIRD when it comes to getting number 1. Some cry for goodness sake because they got 93% in their course (because it's not 100%). It's not good enough for them.
WE ARE STILL CHILDREN! LETS HAVE FUN WHILE WE ARE STILL AT IT!
Soon, we are going to be boring mum's and dad's, no 'real' excitement, just making money, more problems are going to rise when we get older. When you're older, you start to lose hope, lose dreams, they get narrower and narrower every second you grow up!
Yes, we should still care about culture, politics and stuff, I'm not saying that we should go get stoned and drop out of school - we should still keep the childhood within us while we still have it!</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Getting ready for college should be fun! Not death. I'm excited about filling in my application forms. I excited about doing my SATs.I'm excited about my finals which's in a week! I'm excited because I'm going to go to a party tomorow. I'm excited because I'm going to get drunk. Who knows, I might even end up drinking diaroehea!</p>

<p>Some people on this thread try to act real superior to others ( I don't know who these are, but you know who you guys are). What makes you so superior that you can call someone a 'retard' or someone 'dumb' or someone 'ugly' or someone 'stuckup' or someone '****licker'? We are all equal !
Something that amuses me is when little kids such as 10 year olds, putting on piles of makeup. That's because they don't act their age.
So let’s act our age, let’s not try to act like if we’re 28. Maybe a LITTLE mature then what the ‘average’ teenager acts!</p>

<p>OK Those are my ideas. Most of it has nothing to do with this topic (i think) but I am very bored so sorry, i think i got carried away. oh well.</p>

76

<p>NoFX, a big thumbs up on your above post! Its unfortunate Singapore doesn't have the 'intellectual freedom' for its youth. As I mentioned earlier, our education system is unforgiving, cutthroat, and overly-competitive.</p>

<p>In Singapore, children at the age of seven are placed into a rigid education system: primary school for six years, secondary school for four years, junior college for two years, and finally a place in the university. Through this system, students are forced to be all rounders - studying a general curriculum of various subjects touching on science and humanities, and at the same time partaking in extra-curriculum activities outside class. Students are given textbooks in which they memorize and regurgitate everything to score As.</p>

<p>In primary school, children as young as ten years of age are streamed according to their capabilities. It's an open secret that teachers usually focus their attention to the better streams so that their respective schools can achieve higher rankings; in neglect of the lousier streams. Yes, Singapore ranks its schools - hence all this elitism crap from people like wukong.</p>

<p>How well one does at the final exams of his entire primary school career determines which secondary school he can enter; how well one does at his final exams in his secondary school career determines which junior college he enters; and so on. Anyone who falters from the system or lands in a "lousy" secondary school or junior college is socially considered a failure. Basically, a number of 1-3hour exams held over a month determines one's entire future.</p>

<p>Is this what education is about - churning out like-minded robots who are only good at memorizing and throwing up facts? Its no wonder many parents here are sending their children overseas to study, where they can actually LEARN something. Heck, I vow NEVER to let my children suffer what I went through. Argh, I don't even want to touch on Singapore's "communist-tic" government. I can't wait to migrate out of this hole - a country which even its own people label as "Sinkapoor"...</p>

77

<p>"Sometimes, people can't help but to 'follow the crowd'."
Of course, this is true. However, this doesn't mean that it is right to attribute 'follow the crowd' mentality to all of your choices. For someone who just acts defensively to every question with 'I'm following the crowd', why the person must not have much willpower! Someone who follows the crowd and is 'smart' (I'm assuming that you use this word in context of their grades) is not a basis for your argument. It doesn't mean that since your friend is smart, she follows the crowd, you must do so too. It's not a reason. There is after all, a difference between being smart, and being wise.</p>

<p>Going to a better school gets you a better rep. Absolutely. But at the end of the day, what matters? At the end of the day, does getting a higher salary matter? Reputation is a quick fix to short term happiness (and smugness). OF COUrse, I'm not saying that you should go to some 'whatever' school when you can get Harvard. But just be aware that reputation and prestige should be only ONE of the factors influencing your decision.</p>

78

<p>seeker - perhaps you were not following the thread quite closely: the issue is about going overseas to 'prestigious' colleges, not just about 'going overseas'. If you want an overseas experience and overseas job opportunites, going to any overseas university can provide you with that. You are not that dumb <em>not</em> to know the difference, right? But then again, it's not like I really care why you want to go. I was just curious. Afterall, strangers like me who appear judgemental will not stop you from wanting to go, even if your real reasons are shallow. (Only you know what your reasons are)</p>

<p>wamdue - Since you are so unhappy with your luck of being born in Singapore, I think it is better for you to migrate too. What can be better than becoming a 2nd rate citizen? What can be better than living in countries where college shootings are not unheard of, where guns are readily available to anyone, where racisim is frighteningly-in-your-face and is felt even when you go to the grocery store, where you are too scared to be out alone after dark, where you can't really vote even though you are a 'citizen', where murders can happen in your college rooms, where you live in fear all the time, and when the natives joke with you, they are laughing at you and not with you, even though you don't really realise it all the time...</p>

<p>Sounds surreal? Obviously not all these happen in any one single place, since it depends on which country and which city you eventually decide to migrate to.</p>

<p>Anyway, I'm sure "Sinkapoor" will not be sad to say goodbye to you migraters. Afterall, there are many more foreigners who chose to settle down premanently in Singapore for exactly those above-mentioned things that you are going to.</p>

<p>Good luck, and all the best! </p>

<p>You "go" girl!</p>

79

<p>Just for the record, I have lived in the U.S. and the U.K for a number of years. Those were personal opinions, and in no way representative of the whole of U.S. or U.K, in case anyone takes offence.</p>

80

<p>The MOE should really re-look into their 'National Education' cirriculum. It's not really working for some of us (eg. wamdue) Heh! :D</p>