Regarding O Levels

<p>keygp said:
"perhaps you were not following the thread quite closely: the issue is about going overseas to 'prestigious' colleges, not just about 'going overseas'."</p>

<p>yes, and i wasn't highlighting the overseas experience as the main point. i was pointing out that, in the US for example, the remuneration for grads from top unis is, initially at least, somewhat higher than the norm, which you say is not true locally.</p>

<p>"keygp: "If you want an overseas experience and overseas job opportunites, going to any overseas university can provide you with that."</p>

<p>and going to certain universities, goes the general reasoning, will improve your chances at good jobs. or gratify your sense of ego, or boost your personal sense of social status. it's not my business to judge whether these motivations are shallow or not - only whether they're valid (as opposed to deluded). i'm pretty sure they are largely valid. it's just too bad if people want to be perceived as superior instead of mediocre, right?</p>

<p>Keygp: Hahaha well anything's better than being a Singaporean and STILL being a 2nd rate citizen! A country with no social welfare; where foreign citizens get all sorts of special treatment (they pay the same rates as Singaporeans for local unis - we basically shell out our taxmoney to pay for their school fees; oh and they don't even need to do National Service when they migrate here); the dreadful National Service which is a waste of two years of my life, and for what purpose; no freedom of speech; an oppressive and close-minded government ruling; heavy censorship in the media...</p>

<p>It's very unfortunate that you live in your own world and don't see the many people suffering; living in repression in this sad country. Oh well, I'd rather take my chances and move to a place where true democracy exists and where the 'air' is fresher.</p>

<p>Good luck and all the best to you too! You'll need it.</p>

<p>First, on the original thread about O-levels for wamdue:
If your O-levels determine which JC you go to, and which JC you go to by and large determines your chances of admission (remember that WSJ article about RJ a while back?) then A = B = C. That said, even if you went to a centralized institute or private candidacy and you got 4a2d gp1hc1 and 1600/2400, then it might not be so much of a liability =) Gd luck for AEM. </p>

<p>Second, I'm trying so hard to identify all of you from your post histories.
Seeker sounds a lot like Dennis. Are you Dennis, lurking in college confi?
I've figured out who discombo is. Holland v post office three saturdays ago.
Sin_87 - could you msg me? I want to ask you about Ross.</p>

<p>Anyway. I'm a J3 from ACJC AH so do let me know if I'm supposed to know who you are.</p>

<p>wamdue: I'm glad that you have already figured out for yourselves what you really want. It is just too bad my parents' tax money went into educating you until your A levels (as well as those 'crapy' meals that fed you for your 2.5 years in NS), and then you simply pack your bags and go. No hard feelings. It happens. Yes, it happens everywhere, not just in Singapore.</p>

<p>The UK government gives out the ORS awards and the British Chevening scholarships (Both are full awards) to international students all over the world for many years now. With universities struggling with keeping up in funding, I have not yet heard any British or read in the local papers that taxpayers' money should stop going to foreigners. For the ever practical Singaporean, this must be very strange logic (going by what wamdue was saying). But it goes to show that when the most affluent country in SE Asia tries to be big hearted to its neighbours by doing selfless deeds/favours, it gets criticised by its own people.</p>

<p>Sorry - but I couldn't help laughing when you mentioned that "many people are suffering" Do you mean in Singapore? LOL</p>

<p>The London Underground is famed for its trains stopping midway while journeying through a deep underground tunnel. Often, the disruption takes up to an hour. The reason? From time to time, people commit suicide by jumping off the platforms to an oncoming train. These are people who were so poor with no more hopes left in their lives. Dying was better than living. DYING was better than LIVING!! Does the society care? I doubt so, because you will never find that sort of news as 'headlines' in the local papers. In fact, they don't even bother to report it. Nobody cares who these people were, what happened in their lives, or why they were suffering. </p>

<p>It is therefore hard for me to imagine what sort of 'suffering' you went through. Dis-satisfaction yes, Unhappiness yes, all these I can believe. But suffering? :)</p>

<p>I am not a politician, neither am I a Political Science student, so I don't know what you mean by 'true' democracy. (In fact, it's the first time I've heard that there is such a thing as 'true' democracy. Very interesting) But I know that Arnold Swarchenegger cannot run for the President in U.S. even though he is a 'citizen', simply because he was born in Austria. I also happen know that there are Singaporeans 'citizens' who were born in Malaysia, are in Parliment, and there is no constituition that stop them from becoming the President or Prime Minister of Singapore.</p>

<p>I encourage you to step out of 'Sinkapoor'. There is definitely an outer world other than your own in Singapore. Oh and thanks for the good luck wishes. Yes, getting more good luck wishes can never be a bad thing! :)</p>

<p>invictus: Thanks, I'm from a JC btw...</p>

<p>keygp: i can't believe this. you rail against wealth redistribution on libertarian grounds, yet you object to the exercise of freedom of movement? contradiction. perhaps you and your folks should stop paying taxes altogether so you won't finance we ungrateful sons of singapore. =) </p>

<p>you might find the politics discussion on <a href="mailto:youngrepublic@yahoogroups.com">youngrepublic@yahoogroups.com</a> interesting. its full of disillusioned scholars who went to the UK and angry NSFs.</p>

<p>invictus: you must be joking! You are free to move wherever you like man! :)</p>

<p>I'm just a cynical, judgemental, skeptical, critical, insignificant fella who really has no business poking my nose into others' businesses and make them feel uncomfortable. I guess I'm lucky I've made a few good friends from UK and US during my time in these 2 places, and I'm just glad they are still my friends even when I poked my nose too much into them and their countries/cultures :)</p>

<p>I should really stop replying to any more posts here! I'm spending waaay too much time on this thread. Ugh!</p>

<p>Thanks for directing me to the yahoogroup discussion, but no thanks. I am not a politician, neither am I a political science student. Disillusioned US/UK scholars and angry NSFs frighten the hell out of me! You win dude. :D</p>

<p>keygp:
"The MOE should really re-look into their 'National Education' cirriculum. It's not really working for some of us (eg. wamdue) Heh!"</p>

<p>--ya, some of us who possess critical discernment.
"It is just too bad my parents' tax money went into educating you until your A levels (as well as those 'crapy' meals that fed you for your 2.5 years in NS)"</p>

<p>--hm maybe u r really rich so ur parents paid a disproportionate amount of taxes; but most of our parents pay taxes too thanks.
and not to mention our free labour during 2 years of ns.</p>

<p>"But it goes to show that when the most affluent country in SE Asia tries to be big hearted to its neighbours by doing selfless deeds/favours, it gets criticised by its own people."</p>

<p>--lol u really believe the govt is trying to be big hearted. since when has it ever done a single thing that's doesnt serve its own / singapore's interests?
"The London Underground is famed for its trains stopping midway while journeying through a deep underground tunnel. Often, the disruption takes up to an hour. The reason? From time to time, people commit suicide by jumping off the platforms to an oncoming train. These are people who were so poor with no more hopes left in their lives. Dying was better than living. DYING was better than LIVING!! Does the society care? I doubt so, because you will never find that sort of news as 'headlines' in the local papers. In fact, they don't even bother to report it. Nobody cares who these people were, what happened in their lives, or why they were suffering."</p>

<p>--fyi, singapore has higher suicide rates than in your horrible uk.</p>

<p>honestly, i feel that a lot of you are speaking from a perspective of not having left the country as yet. i mean, of all the people on this thread who are contributing consistently, i think most if not all are still in junior college or in national service. while that does not mean that you guys aren't qualified to speak on such matters, it is true that none of you have experienced enough to justify whatever you have said.</p>

<p>anyway, i've read through what i've missed and here are some observations. i've decided to go by page because it's too difficult to discern who is who after some time:</p>

<p>pg3- firstly, it really doesn't matter which jc you come from if you're really that good. and once you're in uni, it's like you're starting from scratch all over again. the slate is pretty much wiped clean. no one is going to give you props if you had 4As and 2Ds for your A levels, and no one is going to knock you if you didn't do as well. why? because basically once in uni, past achievements don't count. you have to prove yourself again. of course, with good results, it opens so many more doors in terms of unis and so on, but once you're in here, it doesn't matter.</p>

<p>next. of course there is some disparity between standards of junior colleges. for instance, i was from tj, and i always felt that there was a lack of resources for students like me who wanted to go abroad. also, the whole culture was different from that say of a rj, where many students are gearing themselves to go overseas. and there were a few other things. but the thing is, its ridiculous to judge people based on their school. i mean, in ns i got to meet so many different people, and some of the brightest are poly students. i mean, being able to study well is one thing, but some of those guys are really good, and i respect them as much as anyone. so to sum up, yes some schools definitely have more to offer than others, that's the way things work. but people in schools deemed to be "not as good" aren't necessarily that way. they could be there for several reasons, an important example being location. </p>

<p>pg 4 - "It just seems that everyone agree in a way or another that 'quality of education' (broadly) means better teachers, better system, better management, and obviously better 'name' etc"
i agree with the above except for the last one. just because a school has a poorer "name" doesn't mean that its quality of education is not as good. for instance, comparing the ENGINEERING programs of say, harvard and illinois. harvard is harvard and will always have that brand equity but truth is that illinois has a much better in terms of engineering. there are other examples of course which i will not go into. i trust u get my drift.</p>

<p>so on we go:</p>

<p>"Let's look at some facts:
1. There is no data that shows that graduates of overseas 'name' colleges have a much lower percentage of unemployment upon graduation, compared to the local U (at least in Singapore it is the case). If anything, graduates from NUS/NTU are more likely to find jobs quicker simply because they are in Singapore and are immediately available for interviews."</p>

<p>mostly untrue. let me first say that i have no factual data apart from my own business school and even then, i have nothing explicit in terms of singaporeans apart from some people that i know personally. however, this is spoken like a true local grad. thing is, once here, you'll realise how geared everything is towards finding a job. for instance, almost everyone here looks for an internship during summer, be it through the school or through their own means. in nus/ntu, how many people actually apply for proper internships, apart from the ones where its compulsary to spend a term at a company?too many local undergrad want to spend their summer making floats and collecting donations. i was speaking to a friend recently, and he asked me what i was doing for summer. i told him that i would most likely be working as an intern in one of the banks, and i told him that since his results are good (he's an engine student), he should go try to intern somewhere too. turns out, he didn't even know how to write a resume! which leads me to my next point. there are so many resources overseas to take advantage of. again, in the business school here, something like 86% of all students receive a job offer by graduation. the figure is 74% for international students. furthermore, not everyone returns home, so its hard to compare. but i'm pretty sure that people from good schools do get better jobs more quickly than local grads. of course there are exceptions but by and large this is true. and the part about interviews, not only might some schools have interview practices, one can always do phone interviews with local companies. </p>

<p>on a sidenote, not many singaporeans want to work for local companies once coming here. </p>

<p>"2. Promotion opportunities. If you think an employer will promote you just because you are a Harvard graduate, think again. If you think a colleague/peer who used to attend a non-name school will never be better than a Harvard graduate in similar jobs aftter 5 years in industry,think again!! Bottom line is - if you are really smart and know your stuff, you'll move ahead anyhow even if you went to XYZ schools."</p>

<p>Agreed. Amen.</p>

<p>"3. Salary. If you think that your starting salary will be higher if you are a Harvard graduate, think again! Truth is, HR policies across all companies (in Singapore) pays between $100-$200 more for 1st class graduates, whether your degree is from Harvard or from XYZ college (they don't really care you know. You mean you think they'd be ga-ga all over you because you went to RJ or VJ??). And, <em>hold your breath</em> some polytechnics graduates starting salaries are higher than graduates!"</p>

<p>this depends on the job. again, i am in the business sector so i can't say for all, but grads from good schools are in a better position to negotiate a better pay packet. and some of these jobs are obviously not eligible to polytechnic students. in some cases, they might have higher starting pay, mainly because they might have some work experience. which again leads to the importance of internships and how local undergrads don't realise this.</p>

<p>"4. Last but not the least, gone are the days when companies make the distinction between a diploma and a degree holder. Nowadays, employers are more than willing to consider diploma applicants for a 'graduate job'. That is how much employers value the Polytechnic education (or in wukong's terms - that is how much employers value f-up students from lousy schools rather than HIM). Shocking? But it's true."</p>

<p>see above.</p>

<p>ok i better split this up. its getting too long</p>

<p>"or in wukong's terms - that is how much employers value f-up students from lousy schools rather than HIM"
i mustve missed this. dunno which moron said this, BUT SINCE WHEN HAVE I SAID ANYTHING ABOUT EMPLOYERS VALUING ME OVER SOMEONE FROM SOME POLY??
obviously no one gives a **** which sch ur from, all that matters are ur abilities. all i said was that the average student in say harvard is better than the average student in say nus.</p>

<p>i think much of the rest of pg 4 is devoted to the jc argument as well. i have already aired my opinion on this i guess. NoFX you're da bomb. btw it seems like i'm getting to 28 too fast. it's no fun after 21 believe me on that. </p>

<p>wamdue's point is interesting. many people really complain about the stifling environment in singapore. to an extent, that's true. over here freedom of speech is a big big thing, especially on a liberal campus like michigan. however, and this is true, once here you do tend to miss home. i know this guy who resolutely said when he left that he's never going to step foot in singapore ever again and all that jazz. guess what, it seems like he changed his mind already for he went home last summer. of course it might not be applicable to you because maybe you have a stronger resolve. but be thankful that you can afford it. and also, engineers in general find it more difficult to get jobs here than other students. don't ask me why but it happens. and, for instance, there's always this thing about 'racism'. not that it doesn't exist in singapore, but here, it's very subtle. and to me, that's even worse because everyone claims that its fair but we all know it isn't. because of this, it's even more difficult to maintain.</p>

<p>on the flip side, i think keygp has too nationalistic a mentality. yeah you've lived in other countries but firstly how old were you at that age? how aware were you of the possibilities and the dangers and so on? secondly, its kinda like a frog in the well attitude. how much of the us and uk have you seen? living in 1 part of the country is fine but not everyone stays there. ann arbor is plenty safe but i would be a fool to think that it's like that everywhere else. likwise, uchicago is a more dangerous place but is that a proper representation of the area.</p>

<p>pg 5 (finally) -
"A country with no social welfare; where foreign citizens get all sorts of special treatment (they pay the same rates as Singaporeans for local unis - we basically shell out our taxmoney to pay for their school fees; oh and they don't even need to do National Service when they migrate here); the dreadful National Service which is a waste of two years of my life, and for what purpose; no freedom of speech; an oppressive and close-minded government ruling; heavy censorship in the media..."</p>

<p>there are reasons for all this i guess. e.g, social welfare is not necessarily a good thing. an econs student will be able to tell you this. why? it actually gives people an incentive to laze about and get money even if they don't work. same for minimum wage, there is a disincentive to improve yourself. and it raises the unemployment rate too. and national service is what you make out of it. if you choose to make the most of your time, its honestly rewarding in its ways. when i was actually going through it, i couldn't wait to get out as well. looking back, i realised that i had some real good times there, and there's no better training when it comes to taking responsibility when it comes to ns. if nothing else, recruiters love to see army experience on your resume. go figure. it gives them something to converse about and there are always anecdotes for you to share. and i'm proud of it too. i won't hide that.</p>

<p>they say that singapore was ruled on the basis of 2 books, plato's republic and marchiavelli's(wrong spelling i think) the prince. well, looking at lee kuan yew, he did resemble marchiavelli's ideal ruler, someone who had to be strong handed and uncorrupt. it's easier to forget that independance was only granted 40 years ago. in that respect, he did what he had to do because if poor foundations were laid, the country would have been an even worse situation. i'm not saying that the country isn't oppressive, i realise that is it, but in that scenario, it was probably the right thing to do. one cannot compare freedom of speech to say, the US, because it has such a long history. and anyway the term "true democracy" hardly exists</p>

<p>yess! i'm wanted by invictus</p>

<p>but then again, keygp, i think you're just being a little melodramatic. of course stuff like jumping in front of trains happens but i don't think it should be a representation of general life there. furthermore, what about that girl that jumped because of poor results. there's obviously something wrong with that duncha think.</p>

<p>"but most of our parents pay taxes too thanks.
and not to mention our free labour during 2 years of ns."</p>

<p>heh. what an oxymoron. and you guys think your pay is low now. i did ns when pay was really low and oh btw it used to be 2.5 years.</p>

<p>so...my point is. relax and take a chill pill. the fact that most of you are here on this board would mean that life is pretty good to you. be aware of this. i have friends who are local grads and so many of them are stuck in jobs that they don't want to be in. be grateful that you guys have the chance to go abroad because not everyone does.</p>

<p>Hi
Im doing my final year of GCE CAMBRIDGE ADVANCED LEVELS.. from pakistan</p>

<p>Olevels -> AAAABB
AS LEVEL-> ABBB (business A, econ B, accounts B, maths B)
ALEVELS predicted AAAA (maths A, business A, econ A, accounts A)
toefl 283
v.good ECs</p>

<p>wht r my chances for mcgill, uft, schulich
thx</p>