Regarding Safeties (and Harvard vs. Yale)

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I need one, badly. Here is my current list of colleges, which is conspicuously missing a guaranteed admit:</p>

<p>Stanford (SCEA)
Princeton
Dartmouth
Pomona
Harvard or Yale, see below
Northwestern
Cornell
Claremont-McKenna
Pitzer</p>

<p>Naturally, the lack of safety would not be an issue if I got into Stanford through SCEA, but that is never a given (and I'm not a transcendent applicant), so I need to be prepared if it doesn't work out. However, I've been looking at other colleges for this purpose, and can't really find one I would be happy at. CC was the obvious first resource to assist me, so I came here.</p>

<p>Stats, plans for my major, and desired college attributes are assumably important, so here they are:</p>

<p>Objective:</p>

<p>White male, from Oregon.</p>

<p>SAT I: 770 CR, 780 M, 800 W
SAT II: 800 Math II, 800 Physics, 780 US History</p>

<p>APs: I got 5 on Calculus AB and USH , and am taking 5 or 6 this year</p>

<p>GPA/class rank: 4.0 UW, 4.1 W, 1/138 (tied with 4 others, our ranking system is...interesting)</p>

<p>Subjective: This probably isn't too important, considering its a safety, but I have a half-finished book (in progress) and computer assistance (volunteering it) as my primary ECs. The only major award of note is NMSF. Recommendations are fine, my main essay is very good, according to others who have read it.</p>

<p>Majors: I used to be set on engineering, but that interest has waned a bit, so its now a complete balance of economics, engineering, and history/philosophy/politics (some random subjective social science, as a minor, but still important).</p>

<p>College attributes: This is where I think the difficulty lies...Here is what I want from the safety.</p>

<p>Not inside a large city - Harvard or Northwestern's location (preferably Evanston) is the closest I'd like to get to urban.</p>

<p>Under 20,000k at least undergrad, preferably total. This is vital; I do not want a gigantic state school, like tOSU or U-Wisc. I didn't apply to UCLA or UCB for this reason (although the terrible OOS FA and fact its not a safety for OOS were also contributors.) As a general rule, smaller is better.</p>

<p>Not located in the Southeast/Great Plains. I would like to stay east of Chicago or west of the Rockies, and north of Kentucky in the east.</p>

<p>Affordability - I need to, obviously, be able to afford it as well. My parents have 60,000 for my college education, so I can't get by without cheapness/aid. I have NMSF (and assumably NMF, since I filled out the application and sent it in), but I'm not sure how much that helps for OOS publics/lesser privates.</p>

<p>Not an Oregon public. I'm not spending four years slaving in high school to end up at Oregon State (or something worse, such as Portland State or the directional schools), because that would be to painful to contemplate (and I'm serious, this isn't elitism, just the simple fact of knowing 30% of your classmates who cared much less about school than you did are going to the same college you are - it doesn't seem fair, and wouldn't be something I would want to deal with.) I looked at the University of Oregon, but it seems too weak in the areas I was looking at, and I get the sense I would get the same dejected feeling as at OSU.</p>

<p>I'm rather picky, as it appears, but I don't want to invest fours years of my life and > 50,000 in someplace I dislike or am unhappy at.</p>

<p>I did get a lot of attention from Colorado School of Mines, which I looked up and noticed was small, and ideally situated, but sadly restricted to only engineering and economics (according to Wikipedia) for majors, and seems very weak in humanities overall. I would assume they would love to have me, and would offer assistance, but I'm not very sold sold on going there. Thus, as that was only place that had remotely interested me, I need other suggestions. So, considering everything I've written in the post, please suggest safeties/help guide me onto the path to finding one. All help is greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>Harvard vs. Yale addendum</p>

<p>I've decided for financial reasons, and reconsideration of circumstances, to also apply to either Harvard or Yale should I not get accepted through SCEA. As probably not mentioned earlier, I would only apply to Dartmouth, Princeton, and Pomona should Stanford give me a favorable decision, and everything else if they defer or reject me. Harvard or Yale is obviously part of this list, and in being prepared, I need to decide which one to apply to. However, I'm not really sure which. Considering the factors listed above, and adding a consideration of the undergraduate focus (I am resigned to not getting a great focus at a safety, but for my reaches, having a good focus on the undergraduates is essential), which of these two would be a better fit? I got the sense that Yale is less inclined towards engineering, and located near downtown New Haven, but is smaller, and more focused on undergrad than Harvard. Naturally, that makes my decision difficult, but since I don't know the accuracy of my perceptions, having a more reliable source corroborating or correcting them is a good idea. Input on this would be greatly appreciated as well.</p>

<p>Post length warning, sorry</p>

2

<p>
[quote]
Subjective: This probably isn't too important, considering its a safety, but I have a half-finished book (in progress) and computer assistance (volunteering it) as my primary ECs. The only major award of note is NMSF.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Perhaps, but if you don't really have ECs other than the ones you listed here, you're probably not going to be as competitive as you'd like for the non-safeties you listed. But maybe I misunderstood — perhaps you meant you have a number of ECs and awards but didn't list them because you're only looking for some safeties right now?</p>

3

<p>Do Pomona, Claremont-McKenna, and Pitzer have anything remotely resembling engineering?</p>

4

<p>harvard is definitely urban.</p>

5

<p>Last year the only school my S would agree to apply to as a safety was the University of Rochester. (His scores were in the same general ballpark as yours, his class rank not as good, his ECs and awards probably stronger.) I think it would be an excellent safety for you, also, because it is strong in a variety of academic disciplines including the sciences and engineering, social sciences, and philosophy. They do give merit aid.</p>

<p>I also think that you should look at Swarthmore: just outside Philadelphia, engineering plus excellent humanities.</p>

<p>Yale's campus is gorgeous, but it is definitely more urban than Harvard in feel, I'd say. It is <em>in</em> New Haven, which is not a beauty spot, not "near" it. Cambridge is a wonderful place, and is Harvard's main advantage over Yale, IMHO. The residential college system and undergraduate emphasis are Yale's strengths when compared to Harvard.</p>

6

<p>Neither of them is any great shakes for undergraduate engineering. Certainly not top 10 for either (neither is Dartmouth nor Princeton). A school you left out that would be a bit easier to get in (though definitely not a safety) that would be top 10, and has an excellent economics department is Carnegie-Mellon (though it is urban, in a GREAT city).</p>

7

<p>


</p>

<p>Yeah, exactly. I was just listing the top two so you could get a sense of them; I filled up the Common App space for ECs, and listed five honors academically.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Access to Harvey Mudd classes, I thought.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Okay, that sounds good. Where is it located in the city? Not near downtown, I would hope.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I also think that you should look at Swarthmore: just outside Philadelphia, engineering plus excellent humanities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'll have to consider it, should Stanford say no.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>I thought so. As I said, engineering isn't really terribly important anymore, so having a top notch engineering department isn't as vital as it once was.</p>

<p>I left out Carnegie-Mellon due to reports of bad dorms, bad food, and terribly stingy FA.</p>

8

<p>Binghamton is quite small for a public flagship (around 12,000 undergrad and 15,000 overall enrollment) and is a screaming bargain for out-of-state tuition, even before considering a likely merit aid award. The city of Binghamton is a quaint college-centered town of about 50,000 people, right near the Penn. border (BU is actually located right next door in Vestal). I think it fits most all of your criteria and would definitely be a safety!</p>

9

<p>A few other places to look at are Lafayette, Lehigh, and Villanova. All of these have good to great engineering programs, along with a well-balanced surrounding university, and give out merit aid.</p>

10

<p>You say money is important but don't say if you qualify for need based aid. If you don't than the list looks very different than if you can count on the need based aid HYSD etc, give.</p>

11

<p>You should apply to USC [University of Southern Calif.] RIGHT NOW [ Dec 10 deadline for 1/2 to full tuition scholarships] as your safety/ financial safety college. USC offers for engineering[ Vertibi] Economics[ Marshall] and general liberal arts. As a NMSF you will be eligible for at least 1/2 tuition scholarship, but you have to apply before the deadline. And believe me there are lots of really smart kids at USC,especially in the Engineering school, who were attracted by the great merit $$ and have found USC has plenty to offer them academically.
A totally different, smaller university that has everything you want except Engineering is the U of Chicago[ 4000 undergraduates].</p>

12

<p>USC and Chicago are both quite urban, however (indeed, the epitome of urban, for better or worse), which the OP did not want.</p>

13

<p>UCSD might be what you're looking for. Good reputation, no more urban than Harvard or Northwestern, and is respected in economics. However, it's $28,932 a year for out of staters. It also has 27,000 total students, which is medium-sized but a bit bigger than what I think you're looking for.</p>

<p>SUNY-Binghamton, according to US News and world report, is the highest ranked school with less than $20,000 a year tuition and under 20,000 students. UDelaware is a bit more expensive, higher ranked, and has 21,000 students.</p>

14

<p>USC isn't urban by any definition thereof. LA as a city never has an urban feel, except for the nucleus around downtown. I was more concerned with the terrible surrounding area than anything else, so if you can convince me that it won't be an issue, I might be willing to go for it. Are you sure its a safety, though?</p>

<p>General Financial Aid Comment: Our income is ~80k, and assets are nothing special. I'm looking at 41-44 k from HYPS if I get in, if you need an indication of financial aid from them.</p>

15

<p>amciw, if engineering is truly not a deal breaker then you might look at some eastcoast LACs, like Hamilton, Colgate, Bowdoin, Middlebury. I'm not sure if they would be solid matches or true safeties but they seem to fit with the ambience of some of the other names on your list. [I'd also suggest you consider Amherst and Williams, though definitely NOT safeties.]</p>

<p>What is your book about?</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
I left out Carnegie-Mellon due to reports of bad dorms, bad food, and terribly stingy FA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They've been doing good work with the dorms, as far as I know there's only one really "bad" dorm at the moment. All of the other dorms are pretty nice, and, if you don't like them, there's TONS of cheaper alternatives off of campus from Beeler St. (a street almost entirely inhabited by undergrads right next to campus) to apartments in Oakland where you might even be living with Pitt students, to houses up in Squirrel Hill and Shadyside. You can get off of the meal plan after your freshman year, and the food's really not that terrible. It's only if you stick around for a second year that it really starts to bother you. </p>

<p>Finally, while their financial aid can be stingy, if they want you, they're not afraid to throw a lot of money your way. I got a ton of money from them and only graduated with around $15k in debt.</p>

<p>Finally, I'd hardly call CMU an urban campus, since you really do feel like you're in the suburbs when you're on campus. There are no streets you'll have to cross (indeed, if you in some of the dorms you can easily go a day or two without ever crossing a street), and you're surrounded by lots of greenery. What is urban is the fact that there's about six different city buses that run right next to the school and can take you to downtown Pittsburgh in about 30 minutes for free with your student ID. And, if you want to walk a whole 5 minutes, you can be within U Pitt's campus which is quite definitely urban.</p>

17

<p>How about Harvey Mudd or Cal Tech? You certainly have a shot at both.</p>

18

<p>"Do Pomona, Claremont-McKenna, and Pitzer have anything remotely resembling engineering?"</p>

<p>Pomona and CMC offer 3-2 Dual Degrees in Engineering, not to mention Harvey Mudd, which contends with Caltech and MIT for top undergrad engineering students.</p>

19

<p>Why choose between Harvard and Yale? All in all, they're quite simlar undergraduate schools so if you liked one, you'd probably feel very good about the other as well. If you're a candidate for financial aid, they're both very generous so it would make sense to take a shot at both of them.</p>

20

<p>SUNY Binghamton is probably a great bargain and fits several of the OP's criteria for a safety, but anyone who thinks the "city of Binghamton is a quaint college-centered town" has either never been there or grew up in Scranton.</p>