<p>I have no connections with UR, other than a plan to apply next year and an unexpected fondness for it--a safety--after I visited. DadofB&G, it's very interesting that Cornell CAS offered an even worse package; could it be that your EFCs vary significantly between the two methodologies?</p>
<p>I stand by my quote of UR's website, stating clearly that it meets full demonstrated need. Loans, of course, are part of that; I suspect Rochester may be using merit-in-need/preferential packaging.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There, fixed it.</p>
<p>Keilexandra, U of R was S's safety also. Although he was not able to visit or interview, they thought well enough of him to offer him one of the merit scholarships listed on their web site. The need-based aid was pathetic. They may not have bothered to give him much because they assumed he would be going elsewhere, but if he were a marginal candidate (and according to stats he was well above the 75% mark), presumably they would not have offered the scholarship, either.</p>
<p>They can say whatever they want on their website, but trust me: when the amount left to be paid per year after aid exceeds parental annual income and is 10x the EFC, you are not "meeting need" in any meaningful way.</p>
<p>Keilexandra,</p>
<p>Re different methodologies: anything's possible.</p>
<p>Re preferential packaging: maybe, but we looked at UR as a match/safety for both D & S; like Consolation's S they were comfortably in the top 25%tile. S received what I think was preferential packaging from a school just as selective as, if not more than, UR.</p>
<p>I don't think you'll see too many people rave about UR's FA. They meet need by offering a loan-heavy package.</p>
<p>^^ Ahah, lack of visit or interview may have been the culprit. I know Rochester places a great emphasis on interviews especially, because their internal research showed that people who interviewed were more likely to accept offers of admission than people who didn't.</p>
<p>But that's sad to know that Rochester gaps need. How was the package structured--a huge private loan from the school? Unless the full-need policy was new this year, they could not have publicly gapped you (or they would have faced lawsuits for outright lies).</p>
<p>Isn't there a UR rep on CC? <em>searches</em> Ah, dweinerman. Hmm. I wonder how he would respond.</p>
<p>New Haven is actually denser in terms of student life - all of Yale's dormitories, theater venues, dining halls and most classrooms/etc are within a 2-3 minute walk of one another, whereas Harvard's are significantly more spread out (sometimes a 10-15 minute walk between dormitories). At Harvard, you don't run into every other student on the entire campus every day of the week like you do at Yale. That combined with the fact that classes are smaller and dormitory life is more cohesive at Yale, enabling students to get to know each other better, makes the Yale campus much friendlier and more vibrant. It's buzzing with activity 24/7 in a way that Harvard isn't.</p>
<p>End result: students are much happier at Yale, and tend to get to know a much larger proportion of their graduating class as a result. Look at 5th or 10th year reunion attendance and you'll see a huge difference, for example. </p>
<p>With respect to the wider city, there's more to do within a few blocks of Yale (hundreds of cafes, restaurants, bars, theaters, etc), and no need to travel far off campus on a subway line. Yale is better-integrated with its host community than any other university in the world with possible exception of Oxford. Having the subway option breaks down the campus social scene at bigger-city campuses like Columbia and Harvard.</p>
<p>I'm not saying Yale or Harvard is a better school, just that in my experience having spent significant time on both campuses (and as an impartial observer not affiliated with either), New Haven is a much better college town on the whole. But don't take anyone's word for it, especially since both cities have changed in significant ways in the past 5-10 years: visit each school, staying overnight for 2-3 days a piece and decide for yourself.</p>
<p>I'd say several of those observations would require you to be more than simply an observer, let alone an unaffiliated one.</p>
<p>Especially:
[quote]
At Harvard, you don't run into every other student on the entire campus every day of the week like you do at Yale
[/quote]
Even discounting the hyperbole, it's difficult to see how you'd establish this without being a student at either</p>
<p>
[quote]
Look at 5th or 10th year reunion attendance and you'll see a huge difference, for example.
[/quote]
Unless you've been stalking the 5th and 10th year reunions (of both schools no less) and tallying a census, then you wouldn't know this...</p>
<p>And then we have the typically dubious assertions:
[quote]
With respect to the wider city, there's more to do within a few blocks of Yale (hundreds of cafes, restaurants, bars, theaters, etc
[/quote]
Ahem. Hundreds? In a town of 124,000? Even the entire island of Manhattan (pop. 1.6 million, which would make it more than 10x the size of New Haven) only has 171 Starbucks caf</p>
<p>Major bump, but I was a victim of Stanford's admissions policies, and thus do have to find a safety. I've already settled the Harvard vs. Yale debate, deciding that Yale was better than Harvard for undergraduate education and experience in most ways, so we can just concentrate on the safeties again. I looked again at URochester, but I can't afford the need aid they are going to give me. Unless their estimator is off, only 21,000k in grants isn't going to cover it, and since I can't be assured of any merit scholarships, I need a place I can afford. What is a place I would be assured good aid, yet is still a good school. Things utilizing NMSF are obviously of benefit as well.</p>
<p>As I mentioned before, USC is a likely safety, both financially and academically.</p>
<p>As I looked more at USC, I realized that even if I got in, I wouldn't want to go there. I just can't picture myself at USC, so it is no longer a viable safety.</p>
<p>If you're looking for grants to cover more than your EFC, then you will need to rely on merit aid (substantial merit aid, since merit scholarships REPLACE, not supplement, need-based aid). And that is an entirely different world of college admissions. As a start, look through curmudgeon's past threads.</p>
<p>That is so stupid. How are they merit scholarships if they are just replacing something you would have gotten anyways? They aren't. That is BS.</p>
<p>Because some people don't qualify for need-based aid but need financial assistance regardless; merit aid is a godsend to them. Coupled with need-based aid, I agree that replacing grants is unfair; but that's life. In any case, you are assuming that need-based FA packages are mostly grant, which they often are not. The school itself might offer low-interest loans, for instance.</p>
<p>Oh...and people say that "you don't need Harvard." What an untrue statement for someone who isn't rich.</p>
<p>Also, I'm really getting sick of worrying about a safety, so I think I'll just apply to Rochester and maybe UO honors, and see if I get money from either of them. If everything fails, I'll just take a gap year and finish my book. Maybe Santa Clara too, or in replacement of that. How good is Santa Clara?</p>
<p>I would really recommend against using a gap year as a "safety." Yes, you're sick of worrying over a safety; but it's important, and it's by far the hardest to decide. Research merit aid, especially curmudgeon as I said. Are you willing to take on modest loans? Your financial aid parameters are narrow, and you will have to seriously compromise on quality-of-life issues like school size, rank, even academic rigor.</p>
<p>What about teacher recommendations? I have a day to get those in if they aren't Common App.</p>
<p>And if I have to sacrifice that much, then I might as well take a gap year, finish my book, and apply as a published author, which would get me accepted at at least one of four top schools. I would not be happy seriously compromising on quality of life issues, especially academic rigor and school size for a safety. The year at such a compromised school (I would obviously transfer out after that year) would be unpleasant and potentially damaging.</p>
<p>In terms of loans, no, my dad said no loans. Our EFC is a bit under 20k, I think, but we can't afford that without loans. Our college investments got slammed by the economic issues (50k - > 20k in the liquid investments), so we lost a lot of wiggle room cash.</p>
<p>Also, on another note, I think its complete BS how assets are factored into need-based aid (and EFC). Essentially, if my parents had blown the 100k saved up for my college on expanding the house, or had a pathetically low home equity, we would be forced to pay much less than now. Why should we get punished for conserving our money?</p>
<p>I think you are seriously underestimating the time and luck it takes to publish a book with a real publishing house (e.g. not self-published or vanity-press published). It's a field I'm familiar with, because I have contacts and I'm looking to break in myself eventually; it is NOT something you can accomplish in a gap year if you have to finish writing the book in that same year.</p>
<p>So let me get this straight: your family refuses to take loans, and you refuse to take student loans as well. You cannot afford your EFC (which includes only parental loans, student loans are part of the "package"). You think FA is complete BS; I agree with you, the system does punish savers. Life is BS, get over it and take advantage what you do have--excellent stats.</p>
<p>I just took another look at your OP. <20k undergrad is a very doable number, I had thought you were seeking LACs. I don't think compromising on school size is necessary, in that case. Look at these threads:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/113-schools-full-tuition-national-merit-finalist.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/113-schools-full-tuition-national-merit-finalist.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/136920-full-rides-national-merit-finalists-scholars.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/136920-full-rides-national-merit-finalists-scholars.html</a>
Be warned that the lists are outdated, so check out the school's website before you get excited. Your safety will probably be a school that guarantees at least full-tuition to NMFs; I can think of few other options that bring total out-of-pocket below 20k without any loans. Do reconsider your geographic limitation, especially of the Great Plains (if you're willing to consider Illinois, why not Iowa or Minnesota?). The South also has MANY full-ride NMF offers, although I get the sense that you are too elitist for such (not meant negatively, as I would judge myself the same way).</p>
<p>Off the top of my head, you might look at Denison as a merit match--stat safety, excellent academic reputation, LAC-sized, in Ohio, offers 20-30 (I've heard both numbers) full-tuition scholarships to NMFs. Not guaranteed but still a good deal.</p>
<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/492777-swallows-capistrano-financial-aid-myths-realities.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/492777-swallows-capistrano-financial-aid-myths-realities.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/129504-equal-stress-opportunity-s-merit-award-season.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/129504-equal-stress-opportunity-s-merit-award-season.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/219347-usnews-top-100-doctoral-colleges-merit-v-need-only.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/219347-usnews-top-100-doctoral-colleges-merit-v-need-only.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/219357-usnews-top-100-liberal-arts-college-merit-v-need-only.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/219357-usnews-top-100-liberal-arts-college-merit-v-need-only.html</a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/221558-another-sleeper-list-lac-s-w-merit.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/221558-another-sleeper-list-lac-s-w-merit.html</a></p>
<p>"which would get me accepted at at least one of four top schools." Oh really? Says who? You will be competing for scarce openings once again, this time against next years crop of baby boomlet seniors, and unless you show a really, really good reason why you took a gap year, there is no plus to doing so as far as admissons officers are concerned, especially at "top colleges". And, if you take a gap year, you will have to go back to your teachers next year, and once again ask them for letters of recommendation, this after they haven't seen you in 10 months, and will be busy writing letters for current seniors. Does that sound like it will be easy? It's won't be.
You need to get over your anger at the way assets are factored into FA. No one likes it, but that's the way it is and it isn't going to change your circumstances. You also need to understand that you aren't OWED money, FA is something you apply for and hope to get.
You're smart, but you are not being realistic. A lot of smart students with great stats are getting slammed this year and it won't be different next year. With all the competition for top schools, it is very unwise for you to assume that you are the one holding the cards and can afford to be as choosy. You need to find a financial safety that you could live with, even if it is not one of your "dream" schools. Then, if all else fails, at least you know you will be going to college next year.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"which would get me accepted at at least one of four top schools." Oh really? Says who? You will be competing for scarce openings once again, this time against next years crop of baby boomlet seniors, and unless you show a really, really good reason why you took a gap year, there is no plus to doing so as far as admissons officers are concerned, especially at "top colleges".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I was under the impression that being a published author was a hook at most of those places. It wasn't the reason I began writing, but that is what I had gathered. I also think that writing a book would be a perfectly good reason to take a gap year - exploring my intellectual interests and doing something productive. Its not as if I'm slacking to play video games for a year, and its certainly no different than working at a hospital or traveling the world, as I've noted other kids do.</p>
<p>Being a published author[ IF you can actually get a publisher to commit to publish your book these days] would be a different EC. It will set you apart, but it is absolutely no guarantee of admission. You would need to be doing a LOT of other things IN ADDITION to just writing a book during a gap year to be considered EQUALLY competative to HS seniors who are going to classes 6-7 hrs a day & spending hours participating in sports & EC's & then doing homework PLUS doing something that sets them apart. Those seniors who are lucky enough to get into HYP and other top colleges were in most cases doing all the above PLUS doing something extraordinary.</p>
<p>"I also think that writing a book would be a perfectly good reason to take a gap year - exploring my intellectual interests and doing something productive"
It's not going to be enough if you want to be competative at top colleges against next years seniors who will have a lot more than one accomplishment to show for a years hard work.</p>
<p>You need to read an old CC thread- "picking up the pieces- what went wrong" by Andi.
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/47867-we-re-picking-up-pieces-but-what-went-wrong.html?highlight=picking+pieces%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/47867-we-re-picking-up-pieces-but-what-went-wrong.html?highlight=picking+pieces</a>
and subsequent posts by Andi a year later.
Her son was extraordinary- had performed at Carnegie Hall, top grades, SAT's, scientific research etc. etc. He was not accepted at ANY OF THE COLLEGES that he applied to. What was his mistake? He and his parents assumed he would be a "shoe-in", that he too had a "hook", so he made the mistake of not applying to any true "safety" college, and he did not "show the love" to those colleges he ASSUMED he would get into. The result? He HAD to take a gap year, BUT he made the most of that year, doing multiple things such as resesarch with a MIT professor, teaching piano lessons to children, and many other accomplishments. He was accepted at a number of colleges when he applied again the following year, but not at any of the colleges that denied him in the first place.</p>