<p>Mamajen, has she thought about Vocal Performance as opposed to MT, or is she absolutely stuck on MT? (I understand if she is…my D is a classically trained soprano, and although her voice teacher - an opera singer - is encouraging her to go into VP, she really ONLY wants MT.) B/c Bard has a phenomenal voice program, and although it is close to you, it is the polar opposite of Vassar in so many ways. And at Bard, she could easily create her own major. And the Fisher Center! What a gorgeous performance space. My son goes to Bard, and he says the vocal performances are unbelievable, rivaling Juilliard’s. (He is a musician…he is a double major, and one of his majors is music.) I know Bard is not for everyone, and your Vassar connections may rule it out since they are such rivals, but it might be a good match for her. She would easily get in given her grades, but don’t be fooled…it was rated one of the top 25 most rigorous schools in the country. And my son can attest to that…he was #7 in his HS class of almost 300, and at Bard, he struggles to get Bs. So, she will be academically challenged, but also be surrounded by musicians and in a great voice program. Just a thought…I wish you luck.</p>
<p>mamajen, the fact that your D attends a rural high school should not be a negative factor in her admissions to those schools. In fact, a place like Yale values kids from diverse backgrounds and so on. Just to mention, my kids also went to a rural public high school. I already told you that my kid who was val went to an Ivy League school and got into other ones too. But as you know, schools like Yale turn away lots of qualified applicants, much like BFA in MT programs do too. </p>
<p>Once your D’s cards are on the table, she should narrow her options down and revisit. I think a revisit to Skidmore is worth it since it is such a strong theater department and has the music and dance minors (very strong in dance) and there are student run musicals (name of that group is Cabaret). My in-laws have been auditing Skidmore courses for years and years including theater courses. They have seen many plays and musicals at Skidmore.</p>
<p>I agree that Skidmore warrents a second visit. If our younger D hadn’t made NYU ED1, she had planned on applying there ED2.</p>
<p>She is happy with NYU and wanted the urban envirinment it offers, but I could really have seen her happy at Skidmore.</p>
<p>She is both a music/ theatre and art kid. But has decided to pursue art as a major, with the hope of becoming an art teacher one day. She is an excellent singer/ actress and has had many leads in school musicals. We had the vocal CD for the Filene Scholarship all set and ready to go. As you have stated, it would have been her only shot at merit aid there and as long as she was involved in music in some capacity she could have been awarded it as an art major. I thought the academics were perfect for her, too. She is slightly lopsided with a 720 verbal (35 ACT English)/ 610 math. Many honors and AP classes. The kids we knew at Muhlenberg in general had not quite taken her course load, yet we felt Skidmore was a notch up.</p>
<p>I feel that the arts in general are very strong at Skidmore and that it is a very nice community.</p>
<p>Maybe in spring the campus and town will be more appealing.</p>
<p>Mamajen, while you did not ask about this, I will add a comment and maybe it will benefit others too. Often on the MT forum, people give their TOTAL SAT score. But colleges truly do look at the scores on the subtest sections. In your D’s case, while her CR and W scores are competitive and in the ballpark for Yale, her Math score is not. While she still stands a chance, that score lowers her odds from already low odds for anyone at Yale. Ideally, it would have been worth the effort to practice the Math section and have retaken it. Anyhow, others reading here should realize that their total scores are not the entire picture when talking about test scores and chances, etc.</p>
<p>PS, also for Yale, the SAT Subject Test scores will matter (along with much else of course!).</p>
<p>@soozievt on the subject of subtest sections for the SAT, do you think the same thing applies to how colleges review ACT results? Do they look at the pieces (math,English, reading, science and writing sections) or do they only care about the composite score?</p>
<p>halflokum, I can’t be sure the answer to your question, but I can’t see why it would be any different with the ACT than with the SAT. After all, the scores are reported on each subtest and not as a total. So, for example, even if someone has a pretty high total score, but one subtest is very low for that particular college’s standards, that may be problematic. Colleges report the test scores of admitted students (which you can use for comparison purposes) and often these are broken down into sub test sections as well. It’s OK to be lopsided whereby one scores a lot better in one area than another area, but the lower area should still be in the ballpark for that school’s standards for admission. My daughter who attended an Ivy League school had a very lopsided SAT score (quite a bit higher in M than in CR). My daughter who went to NYU/Tisch had the same score on her CR as her M (back then the Writing was a separate test, and in her case that was higher than the other two but all were pretty high).</p>
<p>PS, I really do think for the ACT, they would look at the writing section, yeah. Some schools require ACT with Writing (as opposed to ACT without Writing). If they were just looking at total scores, why bother asking for the Writing test too.</p>
<p>sooooo many choices, and how nice to have supportive caring parents!!
How much has she worked in musical theatre? Maybe she should try for a summer stock job to be sure. </p>
<p>There are so, so many good music schools Webster, Indiana, Cincinnati, but lots more… kinda depends on
- where she wants to live,
- will she be close to auditions for summer jobs (kids at Shenandoah loved the school, but did say it’s a bit remote for that! – well, remote, period.)
-money/ late application etc</p>
<p>Lots of ingenues just train as singers in the music dept and work on acting in theatre classes. They still work in musical theatre. No way to tell on a forum how good her voice really is – really hard to tell at age 17 anyway. I wish you well.</p>
<p>I agree about the subscores being important. D’s total SAT was 2000, which was fine for NYU…but we sweated it out until she got her decision because her math score was only 610, (just about 25%ile.) And that was after several re-takes for SAT math and even lower ACT math scores that never budged. (She kept running out of time at the same point in the ACT math section.)</p>
<p>So for higher ranked academic schools, a 620 may be problematic. Especially if one is being accepted based on academics and not talent. Since D was applying to NYU with an art portfolio that accounted for 50% of her admittance, we hoped that it would work out. We realized that at schools like Skidmore or GW one needs to get in academically first since showing a portfolio is optional. Also, for many talent based programs, academics are still important for admissions or merit aid. </p>
<p>Being a performing arts student adds another component to the college process, but it shouldn’t really be seen as taking the place of the academic component.</p>
<p>I did not realize SATs would be so important. They are not emphasized at our HS. Thankfully, this year the high school has finally stopped holding the prom the night before SATs. Too late for my D but some of her friends will benefit from the change. Fortunately it was her SAT II’s which were the next AM, and she got a 720 and 740 on those, so not much damage. The low math score will hurt my D but she has a wonderful letter from her math teacher in her application, so that may mitigate it a bit.</p>
<p>I am curious about admissions for acting if you don’t make it in MT. We were hoping that at Ithaca and Syracuse, if she was rejected for MT she would be considered for acting but I don’t think they really do this unless you are a particular type they are trying to fill. At CMU, she auditioned for acting as she was sure she would not get in to MT.</p>
<p>I was also wondering how important the resume is. My D has been in two HS productions (1 play 1 musical) a year since sophomore year but no community theatre (got the theatre bug late). She’s been to two summer camps, but just a 2-week camp. Those expensive pre-college programs were not an option. Four years voice lessons, but only one with a really great teacher. So she does not have the extensive experience and training some of the applicants have. She has had lead roles (Sandy in Grease and Gertrude McFuzz in Seussical) but it is a tiny HS where everyone who tries out gets a part. She’s got talent and potential but not the background most of the other applicants have. </p>
<p>Some schools state they are only looking for trainability, others seem to emphasize experience. At Purchase, all the kids we met were from performing arts high schools in NYC. The interviewer asked about the “drama curriculum” at her 400-student high school. Since we have limited offerings even in academic subjects, I laughed when I heard that one. We actually get texts from the district to pick up kids at the bus stop because a bear was sighted!</p>
<p>How important are looks in the admissions process? My D is pretty and petite (5’2") but looks so young, we have been at events where the 12 year olds looked older. She did wear a form-fitting but conservative knit dress to show she has a figure, and heels, but even so at least one professor commented audibly on how young she looked.</p>
<p>I appreciate the comments about Bard and Skidmore. We didn’t consider Bard, not sure why, maybe because she didn’t want to major in music. She really wants MT or acting. </p>
<p>The open house at Skidmore in October was amazing. They invited potential acting students and their families to a free catered dinner with theatre majors, talks by professors, a play, and talk-back after the show with director and cast. Unfortunately, it was a miserable day for a campus tour and the dorm we saw was a mess, and all freshmen are in triples. In contrast, we visited CMU on the nicest day in the fall and she absolutely loved the campus in addition to the program.</p>
<p>I am going to put some more effort into checking out Cornell’s program. I have a childhood friend who works at a local theatre in Ithaca, and she said between Cornell and Ithaca College she would recommend Ithaca for theatre, but since that is out, maybe we will revisit Cornell. They had an amazing program in the 70’s (I saw Christopher Reeve there as Hamlet) but I don’t know what it’s like now.</p>
<p>We are still having tears and depression four days after getting the rejection from Ithaca. Any suggestions for handling that?</p>
<p>I wouldn’t worry about how old your daughter looks. My daughter applied/auditioned for college right after turning 16 and looked no older than she was at the time. I remember being on an airport shuttle bus and the driver asked why we were in town and I said for college auditions and he remarked he thought my daughter was 12!</p>
<p>You mention that schools look for potential and trainability. While this is true, you have to remember that when a BFA program is accepting between 2-8% of those who audition, that those who have a strong skill set and are trainable will have an advantage over someone who is merely trainable. </p>
<p>At Syracuse, Ithaca, and CMU, you can be considered for the Acting program if not admitted to the MT program. CMU considers a MT applicant for either automatically (in fact, my D auditioned for MT at CMU and was priority waitlisted there for Acting). At Ithaca and Syracuse, you have to indicate on the audition form if you will consider Acting if not admitted for MT (did your D do that?). My D did that. My D got into the MT programs at Ithaca and Syracuse. But I know others, including a current college student from our rural public high school who got into the Acting programs at Ithaca and Syracuse even though they were originally auditioning for MT. </p>
<p>You mention being asked about the drama curriculum at your high school and laughed. Well, let me say that our high school has NO drama curriculum or classes!! My D still got into a number of BFA programs and so it can happen. Yes, your kid and my kid were up against kids who attend performing arts high schools and other schools with strong theater departments. But others DO get in too. </p>
<p>I’m truly sorry for your D’s disappointment about the outcome at Ithaca. My suggestion is really too late now but what BFA applicants MUST do is to realistically understand that the odds are extremely low at a particular BFA program and to go into this expecting many rejections given the low acceptance rates. Then, it doesn’t sting as much. But even now for your D, I can tell you that she will move on soon and when she looks at the options she has and may still be given and goes off happily to college, the college rejections will long be forgotten. Luckily, your D already has some really fine acceptances that many would envy. A BFA is not the only way for her to go into this field either.</p>
<p>One more thing…and a personal anecdote…
You mention that the day you visited Skidmore was a miserable day weather-wise and it didn’t appeal that much to your kid. I urge you to revisit since other things about the school were positive. </p>
<p>My older child visited Brown University in Nov. of her junior year of high school, one of the first college visits we did. She liked the school a lot but honestly it was a very nasty day outside for the tour part and the campus was not so exciting (other aspects of the school were, however). Fast forward to senior year when she was accepted to Brown and it was one of her top choices and so we went back for their accepted student event days (a two day affair with an overnight that was pretty amazing) and it was in April and happened to be on the first very warm gorgeous spring day of that year. The campus looked like a totally different place than she recalled. The green was filled with students soaking up the sun, playing frisbee and what not. We actually noticed the buildings this time too. My daughter said it was nothing like she remembered. At the end of the two days of events, and even though we were heading to another accepted student event at one of her other top choices, my D said, “I’m going here,” and quickly went to the bookstore and bought the sweatshirt and the rest, as they say, is history and she LOVED this school so much. It was the PERFECT match for her. </p>
<p>I think weather can affect first impressions on a campus visit and so go back again since the other aspects were so positive!</p>
<p>We had the opposite problem, perfect math (and English) ACT but as a slow and meticulous reader that she just couldn’t finish that section. The composite score was fine in the end, but not stellar as the math and English.</p>
<p>What we found is that the standardized test scores need to be “good enough” at most MT programs and quite good at a handful. After that, it seems more about the artistic evaluation. The BIG exception to that though is when it comes to merit scholarships. Sometimes a point in one direction or the other can make a difference about whether or not you will even be considered for merit money that is assigned by admissions. If I had it to do all over again, I would have researched merit thresholds up front, not just limited the research to what one needs to be in the ballpark for admissions. It could have been a reason to take the test again even though the admissions threshold was satisfied easily.</p>
<p>You should definitely revisit Skidmore if you can, especially if she is admitted. It might help to find someone that is already in the theatre program there to give her an inside look. There is nothing quite like a meaningful connection with a peer. With a little research either here on the CC or in Facebook, you could probably find someone to reach out to. </p>
<p>You daughter’s petite size can be a huge advantage in theatre. She can play opposite all of the short leading men (and there are lots of them) and can also play young roles with out the child labor law problem plus she would have the intellectual capabilities of an adult which can make direction easier. I think it’s a good thing and not something to be concerned with.</p>
<p>My niece was in a similar position a few years ago. She was rejected for MT at her audition schools, but was a strong student and got into several good BA programs. Her choice came down to Muhlenberg or Vassar, and her parents convinced her to choose Vassar because they thought it offered superior academics. She loves the student theater program at Vassar, but hasn’t been thrilled with the theater courses. She has had lots of opportunities to perform, with roles in many productions. I think that she still regrets not going to Muhlenberg.</p>
<p>I read my D halflokum’s comment that she could play opposite short leading men and she reminded me Daniel Radcliffe is only 5’5". She would be up for that!</p>
<p>Momjr, this news that your niece is not thrilled w/theatre courses at Vassar is distressing. Do you know if it is the quality of the teaching or the focus on literary interpretation of drama that is the issue? I know about half the coursework in Drama is academic, very different from the emphasis on acting training in some programs. And only 40% of classes are in your major (but lots of room to fill electives with dance and music). My D is concerned about this. On the other hand, I would be even more concerned if your niece felt the quality of the instruction was poor. </p>
<p>My sense is if she wanted to be a dramaturg, playwright, or drama critic, then Vassar is a terrific choice, but if she wants to act, she really would have to go to an MFA program after graduating. In contrast, the Skidmore program appeared to emphasize acting technique and with a BS the coursework was about 60% in your major, and their graduates usually go right to auditions after graduation.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there are real advantages to a solid liberal arts education to fall back on. I made the mistake of downloading the annual report of Actor’s Equity and it is sobering to see how few people actually make a living as performers.</p>
<p>This is a great topic, but I’d personally recommend waiting until you hear from the schools. My own D’s stats are actually higher than your D’s (I don’t mean this in a mean way, just to give you an idea of where I’m coming from), and I have absolutely no idea whether she’ll get into any of the BA schools she applied to–it’s just SO competitive and SO wacky. My older D got into Williams but didn’t get into several other schools we regarded as ‘safe match.’ The process is really, really unpredictable. My older S., who also had very high stats (800, 730,740, President of this and that, etc etc), auditioned for BU, but was rejected from the school academically! </p>
<p>Hopefully in a few weeks we’ll all have more info–Seems SO long.</p>
<p>Finally, Muhlenberg’s MT program is also very well regarded locally, at the regional theatre level in NJ, NY and PA. But academically your D would probably be underserved. It would depend a lot on what she wants. </p>
<p>What I’d suggest is that you wait until you get the acceptances, and then, if you can afford it, visit each school (and if money is an issue, take that into account too). Some schools seem awesome on paper, but the second your kid walks on campus, they get a really strong negative vibe- this happened to my S at a school we both thought he’d LOVE - or the opposite can happen. When you go, make sure to spend time with current students, not on a formal tour, but casually, say at lunch or outside or where ever. If you can sit in on a class, that would be awesome.</p>
<p>Hoveringmom, you are right, it is jumping the gun at this point. I only started the string now as we are reeling from rejections and was hoping to be able to regale my daughter with news that the remaining possibilities are still good options. I suspect her choice may come down to Vassar or Muhlenberg, where we do have indications she will be admitted. That may be a tough choice given her academics vs. her desire for MT. I got some good advice there also.</p>
<p>But I am glad to have gotten some feedback on Cornell and Skidmore, both on this thread and through private messages. I had discounted Cornell entirely as a possibility even if she got in, because I had heard some negatives, but I will continue researching it after getting more details in PMs. As an alum and native Ithacan, I would love it if she got in and the program was good. I liked Skidmore and was hoping to find ammunition to get her to reconsider it if she gets in there. Got some.</p>
<p>From what I understand, admissions decisions will be based on the rigor of the academic program, letters of recommendation, and essay, in addition to the GPA and test scores. Extracurriculars count also. Yale remains a very long shot (about 19% according to CC’s “what are my chances” calculator). I don’t believe the interview is much of a factor, but we thought it might be a good sign that a local Yale alum contacted us unsolicited to set up an interview.</p>
<p>P.S. Hoveringmom, it blows my mind that your son was academically rejected from BU with those scores and activities. Hope he’s happy where he is now. Best of luck to your daughter. Waiting is so hard. Wish it were April already.</p>
<p>mamajen…you wrote:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t wish to be a downer, but just to inform you…but at Yale, as well as at many selective colleges, ALL applicants are offered an interview by a local alum. It is NOT a “good” sign but rather a matter of course. I am an alum interviewer for a very selective college and every student is offered such an interview if they can be accommodated in their region. My daughter was also interviewed locally for Yale and for most colleges on her list. When a student applies, their name is sent to a local alum interview committee who then assigns an alum interviewer to that student. There is no solicitation. This is how the interviews are done for everyone at Yale (and many other schools of its type). Being offered an alum interview implies nothing in terms of odds. Your D was offered the interview merely because she is an applicant like every other applicant to Yale.</p>