Rejecting a BS/MD program?

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
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<p>hopingdad,</p>

<p>You totally missed the point. I was arguing from the standpoint of BS/MD students, not medical schools. What’s the point of telling people what’s good for medical schools when many people here are perspective BS/MD students? Who cares about the interest of medical schools on this board? The OP is perspective BS/MD student, not some med school staff. That’s the problem with norcalguy; he’s been all over the map as far as standpoint goes. To keep it relevant for the OP, he should focus on why it’s bad for the OP or other perspective students. The strange thing is people in it seem to love it while people that criticize it seem to be outsiders. </p>

<p>

Not sure which programs you referred to. When I was at Northwestern, the HPME was over 50% East Asians.</p>

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<p>hey sam,
no reason to be emotional. calm down.
As to your

=> well, not really. both perspectives are useful to know for the applicants.</p>

<p>and

=> it is not caring about the interest of the school. It is knowing the program a bit better. I thought you are an Northwestern alum and perhaps can shed light on the school’s perspective, if you can. As applicants, it would be useful to understand why the program was started and how it is evolving, etc. It makes perfect sense (not in the interest of … as you argue) that when the regular route of medical school app became so competitive and the bs/md program does not bring in any clear benefit to the school, the school can phase the program out and not keep spending the unnecessary overhead to run the program. Any college/post graduate program is the school’s prerogative and will do whatever is good for them eventually. </p>

<p>

how long ago was it at northwestern? i saw it at rochester – where about half or more interviewees were indians, and most current students in the program that i saw were indians. and all the people i know whose children are students in the combined program are indians. other lower ranked programs are predominantly indians as the interviewees say in the posts above. </p>

<p>sam, somehow you took my post above too personally. it wasn’t intended that way. after going through the process for my child, i felt that it was more of a distraction. just a conventional premed route would have been simpler and cleaner, at least in my experience. so, i am agreeing with norcalguy on this point.</p>

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<p>Randomly re-discovered this site/my username after cleaning out an old email box. I’m a RPI/AMC BS/MD graduates. Feel free to ask absolutely any questions regarding this particular BS/MD program, other bs/md programs, or medical school/profession general. I have met quite a few medical students from various schools throughout the past greater half of a decade. I’m here to help!</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Actually, I addressed both sides of the issue quite extensively (read my first post in this thread). BS/MD students performing poorly is a negative for BOTH the student and the medical school. </p>

<p>I agree with you that outsiders view BS/MD programs as a negative. This is not necessarily a good thing. I actually had no concerns about HPME students until I went to Feinberg for Second Look after I was accepted. That’s where I heard about the negatives of the program, from Feinberg med students. They flat out told me that HPME students formed their own clique, didn’t interact with the rest of the class, performed not as well as the rest of the class, and were immature. Unless you attend a program that’s almost exclusively BS/MD (like UKMC’s program), the opinions of outsiders do matter. The “outsiders” will be your classmates and the people selecting you for residency. It’s clear many medical schools have begun to view BS/MD programs negatively (that’s why we see the trend towards closure). I think it is VERY important for a potential BS/MD student to understand why medical schools do not view these programs positively.</p>

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<p>People in/seriously considering BS-MDs are going to be drawn to the pros, while people that aren’t in BS-MDs/not considering them will focus on the cons. </p>

<p>At the end of the day, it really depends on which side you are on that makes this decision for you. No one can choose a BS-MD for a person of reject one for them. It is up to the student to make an informed decision that best fits their current interests AND future interests in medicine. </p>

<p>norcalguy focuses on the later and there is no harm in that. Actually that might be the wisest thing to do, so I don’t see why people argue with his input. Obviously at first, the BS-MDs are great for students, but one should make sure that it doesn’t hurt them in the long run (which is what BS-MDs are supposed to be around for…helping students through the 8 years while doing well and having less stress).</p>

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<p>hopingdad,
Calling others “emotional” or “taking it too personally” serves no purpose here and certainly wouldn’t calm down anyone that’s getting “emotional”. I wouldn’t be so quick to judge who’s emotional or not behind the screen anyway.<br>

Less than 10 years ago.</p>

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<p>I should add again, there are bs/md programs that make NO difference in UG experience, but give participant great advantages. Those who never considered applying to bs/md are not done extensive research and tend to assume that all bs/md’s are about the same. Here are characteristics of some programs where kids have the same college experience as “regular” route while having edge over them because of gauranteed spot.

  1. Kid spend the same number or years as “regular route”. Free to spend 4+ years.
  2. There is no difference in curriculum. The same requirements for chosen major as “regular route”
  3. There is no restricition in major(s)/minor(s). The same as for “regular route” kids.
  4. The same time is availabel to pursue any EC’s (including varsity sports in Div. I - III, any club sport), participation in Greek, internships, job, volunteering, weekend activities, spending time with friends, study abroad…whatever your heart desires just as “regular route”
  5. No stress knowing that maintaining requirements of bs/md program (GPA and MCAT-if required, both of which are lower than they would need to apply to Med. Schools “regular route”, for example 3.45/27 ) will result in having a spot at Med. School without interview and very min. application (no essay), no application fee.
  6. If bs/md participant feels like, he can apply out to other Med. Schools while retaining a spot at Med. School in bs/md program. If they do so, advantages: less stress because of having one at the beginning of process, great advatages going thru interviews because of previous experience interviewing at Med. Schools for bs/md’s while in HS.
  7. As all bs/md applicants are very high caliber HS student and those who are accepted to bs/md are cream of that crop. They usually have great financail packages based on Merit scholarship offerrings covering high % of their tuition thru full tuition/full ride in UG portion of bs/md.
  8. I am sure I missed something. As conclusion I would like to add that it is very important to spend UG years at place that matches student’s personality and all interests /goals medically related and others. Being in bs/md or going “regular” route seems to be secondary to that. This is based on my personal experience of a parent of bs/md student who is graduating in few weeks from UG and in a process of chosing which Med. School to attend having acceptance to few outside of her her bs/md program.</p>
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<p>miamidap, as an applicant to some programs, I agree with several of your points-the flexibility, the lack of stress, the ability to pursue various activities that you wouldnt be able to otherwise do. But just for some clarification, i dont think some of your points are actually true about some programs. You mention no restriction for the major/minor-I think some programs actually do-I know personally that UMKC encourages science majors (bc you take classes at the med school starting in yr 2 that can go towards your undergrad degree).</p>

<p>About your 6th point, that you can apply out-this is almost entirely wrong with a lot of top programs-NU HPME and Brown PLME, idk about rice/baylor, have all taken this feature away-so you really cannot apply out.</p>

<p>About your 7th point-this is true with a lot of weaker ba/md programs-or in state schools-but NOT true for schools like northwestern or Brown or Rice. The amount of merit based aid will decrease as the quality of undergrad students increase.</p>

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<p>I pointed out that programs are different and extensive research is needed. D. did not apply to top programs except for one. She had free UG education at the place that was a great match for her as a student and a person and allowed her to pursue more of her personal interests than she anticipated. At the same time she was accepted to several top ranked Med. Schools that have top bs/md programs. So, at the end it did not make any difference, exept that being in a program and having a spot has helped her tremendously thru Med. School application process. Again, my post did not mean to cover all combined programs. BTW UMKC is accelerated and there is no way it will match to characteristics that I have described. And, yes, NW probably will not cover full tuition. Research, get accepted to few, make a good choice. State school might be a better choice for some than top private/public. State school really appreciates top caliber students and opens some doors to them that are closed to others. If you believe that it is not challenging at state school, sorry to dissapoint, but you are not correct. Very, very challenging even for the very top kids from private prep. HS’s.</p>

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<p>@MiamiDAP and @kbbm24: I agree with both of your points. It’s a good analysis and informative for those learning about these programs. </p>

<p>I absolutely agree with kbbm24 on point-6 that colleges are curbing the freedom year by year to Apply-Out . Colleges might be right from their perspective when they provided gauranteed spot and their resources for 4 years for a purpose, so they do not want YOU to walk away just like that without some pain or penalty to the student (losing current seat).</p>

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<p>"Colleges might be right from their perspective when they provided gauranteed spot and their resources for 4 years for a purpose, so they do not want YOU to walk away just like that without some pain or penalty to the student (losing current seat). "</p>

<p>-I would like to show another “side of the coin” here. Some programs might be more flexible and will remain so. They lure the cream of the crop and it does add tremendeously to their reputation when these kids get accepted to several top Med. Schools in the country. But even more so, these kids also bring GPA’s of those around them up. Some might disagree regarding curve grading. However, lots of these top students are doing ton of formal and informal tutoring, studying in groups with their friends, having paid positions (like SI - supplemental instructor leaders) with lots of kids coming to their sessions. They are told by their supervising profs that they are making very positive impact on grades of those who attend their sessions. Most of them are seeking various opportunities outside of academics. And sometime they organize them giving others a chance to participate (like volunteering with certain organizations). Colleges are well aware of what top HS kid can bring to college and they will continue going after them. Maybe more of that is going on at state schools. And maybe some of these state schools are very good matches for some open minded top kids with wide variety of interests.</p>

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<p>The problem is that 20 kids won’t make much of a difference in a 1000-5000 student college graduating class. But, those 20 students make a significant dent in a 150 student medical school class. It’s a lose-lose for the med school. If the student does poorly in undergrad, they’ll just end up enrolling in the medical school using their guarantee (who doesn’t want a 3.2 GPA kid who just barely scraped by?). If the student does well, they’ll apply out and the medical school loses the student.</p>

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<p>^If a kid end up doing poorly, he will not satisfy bs/md minimum requirements and will loose his guaranteed spot. I have never heard of requirement of 3.2 GPA, but we did not research all programs, only the ones that D. was interested.</p>

<p>Again, I see one mistake in this whole thread. Mistake is to discuss bs/md programs and applicants in general terms. We have visited several of them on interview trips and have met many applicants and their families. Each program is unique and each family situaion is unique. General statements are not applicable, period. Some have a goal to complete whole process in 6 years, everything else will be short of this goal, although acceptable. I have personally known people who got amazing residency matches to the very top places after accelerated programs like these. My own D. was interested in “regular” college experience, she was lucky to have choices. But she was interested in having a guaranteed spot, so she choose not to go to her top choice (private school with top 20 Med. School hat offerred her Merit package covering most of tuition - $27,000/year) because she was rejected from bs/md at this school. Well, looking back, she is graduating from place that was a better match for her, having greate opportunities free of loans and having her original top choice as one of few Med. Schools that have accepted her. It has worked very well for her. Did it work for other 9 kids in her program? I heard that one of them decided not to go to Med. School at all, instead he is going to Grad. School pursuing science career. Most are planning to attend Med. School in a program, just did not want to be bothered with application process. Again, everybody have thier own situaion and goals.</p>

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<p>I was premed and had good grades but was one of the 80% that didn’t get into a medical school. However, my D is in her 2nd year of a 8 yr BA/MD program. She picked it over an ivy! </p>

<p>It is the way to go since she will not have to go for 2 dozen medical school interviews and not 200-300 hours of study for MCATs. She will also not have to shadow docters for 3 summers.</p>

<p>The most important thing is the 80 kids in the college program stick together despite half being upper classmen. There is no cut throat competion since everyone works together like a sports team. When I went to school it was every man (or woman) for himself regarding grades in labs, recommendations, extra points etc. </p>

<p>With my D she just has to maintain a 3.5 gpa. so she will have more of a college experience than beating her brains out in the ivy league. The ones graduating medical school give their apartments to the freshman entering Med school and it is like a big fraternity. The kids from this UG school do very well in Medical School against the upper most tier school kids. </p>

<p>A friend of mine is an MD who teaches at an ivy med school. She advised they are getting 15 “uber applicants” for each slot. By uber she advised people who have 4.0 gpa, nearly perfect mcats and either are concert pianists, had leukemia at age 8 or , escaped a despotic country crossing a river as a child and learning english as a second language.</p>

<p>She pounded into my D take the american med school slot since neuroscience degrees even from top schools are a dime a dozen undergrad.</p>

<p>My D will have an entire senior year to take whatever she wants since she received 30 credits from so many AP courses in high school and from summer schools at 2 different ivies. Also the med school she picked does research into neuroscience so that will help her fellowship/residency goals. </p>

<p>People do not realize that you have 500k premed majors starting in college with 80k highly qualified bio and chem grads coming out fighting for only 16k american med school slots. Also the difference between the top med schools and the lower ones is much smaller than the spread of the top colleges to a state college. You make your bones on where you do your residency and fellowship and that is based on performance in medical school ,“people” skills, interviews, research etc. </p>

<p>Finally, if you feel in your heart you want to be a doctor be focused and get through it now since you will be 30 or 31 when you hang your shingle.

Remember cutoffs are early sometimes Nov 1st and some eject you if you take MCATs or apply to another Med School.</p>

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<p>Just choose where you will be happiest. End of story. I rejected BS/MDs for the regular route and I could not be happier with my decision. I would stick with the same decision if I had to do it over again. It’s really not that complicated because if you can get into BS/MDs out of high school, you can get into an MD school down the road while going where you are happiest.</p>

<p>You all make it out to be much more complicated than it really is. Follow BlueDevilMike’s steps to choosing a ‘pre-med’ school while keeping in mind where you will be happiest and you will love your decision. </p>

<p>And for gosh sakes…have confidence in yourselves! If you get into a BS/MD now you will get into an MD later. Why rely on anecdotes of it not working out, etc. when you can just trust yourself, put in the effort, and get it done? And trust me, you can have LOTS of fun the regular route too…it’s not nearly as stressful as people make it out to be.</p>

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<p>“It’s really not that complicated because if you can get into BS/MDs out of high school, you can get into an MD school down the road”</p>

<p>-no correlation between these 2. If you work very hard, get high college GPA, decent MCAT score, good number of medical EC’s and a bit of luck, then you are a good Med. School applicant. Your performance in HS is irrelevant at this point.</p>

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<p>^nah,the habits you form in high school WILL influence how you perform in college.</p>

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<p>+1 yessirrr</p>

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<p>if you can get into BS/MDs out of high school, you can get into an MD school down the road" —NOT — This is far from the truth.</p>

<p>There are grads from HYP who have to go to the Carribean and farther for Med School.
A P grad could not even get into UMDNJ in Newark which is the easiest in NJ. Ivies will only write for students they think should be premed. That plus their restricting number of A’s in a class due to grad inflation in the past make it a crap shoot. Most of the science majors were valedictorians in high school so image their shock at that one.</p>

<p>New Jersey will only accept schools run to American standards for state licenses. New York will license if upon return grads attend a 2 yr mini med school run in Manhattan. A little ivy told me they write for everyone but count anyone who takes as long as 10yrs after graduation to make their 50% acceptance rate. They advised that many go to grad school or the Peace Corp to build their resume. Imagine spending 10 yrs to build a resume after doing well at a prestigous school costing over 50k a year. </p>

<p>Go to the Student doctor.net , StudentDoc.com and the other sites like CC but for med school hopefuls and spend some time reading their posts. It is an eye opener.</p>

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<p>There are only 16,000 seats in America and there is no such thing as a bad American Med School.</p>