<p>^ thank youuuu</p>
<p>You're always going to meet closed-minded people, both liberal and conservative, and they'll say a lot of stupid things. </p>
<p>I can't say that I'm that politically informed, but I can say that I've met quite a few conservatives here who know what they're talking about and have strong reasons for believing what they believe. But at the same time they can totally see other sides of the issue as well. They choose their positions after considering as many aspects of the issue as they can. A lot of them are also very open and fairly non-judgmental, and having come from my high school (which, I think, has a fair number of blindly conservative and liberal people), this was very eye-opening. </p>
<p>So, in my experience, Cornellians are fairly accepting. Just saying, it really depends on who you discuss politics with.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are you really saying that one can't be a republican and be pro-civil rights?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Given the serious encroachments on the Constitution that has come with the most recent administrations, I find it hard to believe anybody can be "pro-civil rights" and still vote Republican.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Abortion, homosexual marriage, and gun control won't be resolved quickly because the entire country is divided over it. Its not some simple ploy to keep what you think is the platform.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah it is. Just ask Karl Rove. These were the wedge issues he pretty much admits to developing to keep people voting for Bush. As you know, major changes in abortion and gun control aren't going to happen anytime soon.</p>
<p>
[quote]
how in the word does a c*nt festival promote "equality under the law"?
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</p>
<p>Considering that a lot of individuals still don't believe that females should have equal rights and privileges with men, and considering that the legal system still embodies a lot of these prejudices, public awareness about female sexuality may help to inform and educate the leaders of the next generation. I'm not saying I agree with all of their tactics and views, but if Cornell can spend money to have Huckabee speak on campus, I have no problem with Cornell (or Georgetown, for that matter) spending money to support the Vagina Monologues.</p>
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Ever heard of the whole..fight between state and federal governmental rights? A conservative view of the constitution?
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</p>
<p>Yes. And it seems like the Democratic party is upholding the traditionally conservative views on these matters these days, as well. From Medicare Part D to Bush and Cheney's striking abuses of the executive office.</p>
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[quote]
as for the review and the college republicans, those two groups have really weak membership...i've been to their meetings
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</p>
<p>They could have been stronger, though, if you got more involved!</p>
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[quote]
and I don't find it to be a very open-minded majority
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Fair enough. But nobody ever said that Cornell was a campus of open-minded moderates. All we have said is that there are a lot of conservative, libertarian, and apolitical students on campus as well to a vocal liberal majority, and that most students are very civil when it comes to political discourse. And a lot of us have been trying to make this point. But you seem to disagree with it.</p>
<p>But then, as seuferk says, "differing views are fine" on campus, you say "thank youuuu" so now I have to wonder where you stand on all of this.</p>
<p>Thanks Cayuga..I was going to respond myself...but you captured it all quite well.</p>
<p>"as for the review and the college republicans, those two groups have really weak membership...i've been to their meetings"</p>
<p>You must admit though, that for a group (referring to the Cornell Republicans, not the Review) with such a "weak" membership, they've been able to pull off remarkable things, as opposed to say the Cornell Democrats (a group with a significantly higher membership). This past year alone, among other things, the Cornell Republicans brought big name speakers to campus, including Mike Huckabee and John Ashcroft. And these guys did not come cheap! Imagine what the group could do with the numbers the Democrats had.</p>
<p>You definitely don't see the Democrats, with their stronger membership, doing similar things. So, even with what you call a "weak" membership, the Republicans have certainly made a name for themselves on campus.</p>
<p>"If you say something ridiculous, sure, someone will say something, but otherwise, differing views are fine."</p>
<p>I'd challenge this notion too. The Republicans put up signs supporting conceal/carry (the measure in the SA basically called on President Skorton to change Cornell's policy should the laws of NY State and Tompkins County change). Within minutes of placing the signs on the Arts Quad, people came by and tore them down, shouting disgusting comments at CR members in the process.</p>
<p>Additionally, when John Ashcroft came to campus to speak, a fairly large number of students stood up, placed black hoods over their heads and stood in protest over Ashcroft's appearance. In doing so, these protesters blocked the view of many people (and not all supporters) who came to see Ashcroft speak. </p>
<p>These acts are drastically different from the way the Cornell Republicans respond to similar events on the opposite end of the political spectrum. For instance, when protesting the "Anal Sex" event, the Cornell Republicans stood outside of the event room and respectfully demonstrated. Members did not go into the room with the purpose of disrupting the event, and members did not disrupt the event: People who came out to see the presentation were not denied in any way!</p>
<p>I bring up these parallels because the Cornell Republicans represent the conservative voice on campus. I think showing the stark differences between the way groups (those who identify themselves as liberal) respond to the CRs, and the way the CRs respond to other groups, helps to strengthen my argument that, by and large, people are open-minded only towards those like them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd challenge this notion too. The Republicans put up signs supporting conceal/carry (the measure in the SA basically called on President Skorton to change Cornell's policy should the laws of NY State and Tompkins County change). Within minutes of placing the signs on the Arts Quad, people came by and tore them down, shouting disgusting comments at CR members in the process.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But suggesting that concealed weapons are necessary on a rural college campus with a history of armed takeovers is the definition of ridiculous!</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, did the College Republicans have approval to place an installation of that sort on the Arts Quad?</p>
<p>
[quote]
These acts are drastically different from the way the Cornell Republicans respond to similar events on the opposite end of the political spectrum.
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</p>
<p>I will freely agree that the acts perpetuated from some far-left groups aren't necessarily the most civil. And I don't agree with most of their actions. But to suggest these acts indicate that broad swaths of the campus are close-minded liberals who will scream at you if you are a Republican is disingenuous.</p>
<p>"But suggesting that concealed weapons are necessary on a rural college campus with a history of armed takeovers is the definition of ridiculous!"</p>
<p>The members of the CRs who also happened to be members of the Student Assembly wrote a resolution simply asking the University to change its policy to reflect a potential change in the laws of the land. It may sound "ridiculous" to you, but my point is that this is a view shared by many Republicans (or conservatives), and that the demonstration by the CRs in support of this view was not shared by those who plucked up the signs on the Arts Quad. To these people, conceal/carry (especially the way it was presented by the CRs, and not by the media and others) is not "ridiculous! Conceal/carry is a method aimed to offset the wave of criminal activity we've seen on campuses across America, a way to legally arm some against others who can obtain illegal firearms any day of the week.</p>
<p>Also, I am not sure whether or not the CRs got approval, but I'd assume that they did (they seemed to be pretty good at getting approval for nearly all of their events/actions). But even if they did not get approval, the removal of the signs (while possibly "okay" under university rules) still would have shown a case of close-mindedness and non-acceptance by many on campus. For when other groups on campus, and not all of them have permits to do so, place signs on the Arts Quad which support traditional "Liberal" positions, the signs remain until they are taken down by the issuing group or by Cornell staff (after all, the conservatives who oppose them are not out behaving like vandals). </p>
<p>"But to suggest these acts indicate that broad swaths of the campus are close-minded liberals who will scream at you if you are a Republican is disingenuous."</p>
<p>I disagree with you here, but I never indicated what you write. In fact, I clearly stated that the "groups" of people who do so are the ones that are close-minded. Unfortunately, as would be the case the other way around, these groups help to create an unfavorable perception of the doctrine of open-mindedness as it pertains to Cornell.</p>
<p>Additionally, my point is not to speak for the entire campus. My point is to simply point out that Cornell is not as open-minded as people claim it to be. Because many of the same people who hail the virtues of being open-minded are the exact same people who turn around and disrupt Republicans' events, simply because they disagree with a certain ideology presented. That's wrong.</p>
<p>I think perhaps the root of your debate is not really between conservative and liberal ideology, but rather more reflective of the current administration and the reactions people have to what has been done in our name. </p>
<p>A great many people are outraged at the criminal and immoral behavior of this administration that promised to restore dignity to the White House. There is no justification or defense of it. They should be court martialed for treason against the people of the United States of America. When people stand and walk out on John Ashcroft, they are not necessarily standing in opposition to conservative ideology. They are standing in opposition to an accomplise to criminal lying, manipulation of facts leading to war (admitted by many people within the administration during 02-03), rigging of the 2004 election, incompetent cronyism putting a horse guy in charge or FEMA contributing to over 1,000 deaths, and the murders of tens of thousands of innocent people in the name of securing oil interests (as John McCain and Alan Greenspan have respectfully admitted), to name a few. </p>
<p>There's a lot of rage in our society now. Perhaps we should separate what is rage against this outrageous criminal behavior carried out with our tax dollars and what is truly slandering of conservative ideology (perhaps the gun issue would fall in the latter category). </p>
<p>The campus I am near recently had Ann Coulter speak. College Republicans said the same thing as you are: we simply want our voices heard in this sea of oppression. Then they bring in Ann Coulter. Why not bring someone in who will speak articulately and intelligently about conservative ideology? It is so critical to our society and perhaps it would open minds. One need only look at how out of control federal liberalism had become by the 1970s to see what happens when there is no balance.</p>
<p>Instead, they bring in Ann Coulter as if to bait people and then the organizers get upset when people do not sit idly by for a public figure who calls for the withdrawal of women's rights to vote and slanders respected world leaders as faggots. </p>
<p>Is that conservative ideology or hate speech?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The members of the CRs who also happened to be members of the Student Assembly wrote a resolution simply asking the University to change its policy to reflect a potential change in the laws of the land.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The very fact that the CRs used their time in the SA for such a purpose is ridiculous. All of the evidence shows that concealed weapons (or any sort of firearm, for that matter) is not likely to deter a tragedy like the one that happened at Virginia Tech or Columbine. All the proliferation of weapons will do is proliferate unfortunate accidents whereby people who don't know how to properly use handguns blow their heads off. I'm admittedly exaggerating slightly, but you get the point.</p>
<p>The SA should be dealing with matters that can directly improve Cornell student's lives, not silly rhetoric. Like improving the hockey line, or advocating for better career services offices, or improving on-campus student life. What a waste of everybody's time.</p>
<p>But more on topic, I think there is a certain level of confusion and misdirection going on here. The reason why this thread exploded was due to the quip that:</p>
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[quote]
i find that cornell has an extreme liberal bias and is very tolerant as long as you are also very liberal
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</p>
<p>A lot of us responded saying and providing anecdotes that large swaths of the campus are not liberal, and that the vast majority of students are tolerant of non-liberal perspectives. Hell, most liberals are just not tolerant at Cornell, but accepting and loving of their conservative friends! Are the Cornell Moderator and the Cornell Political Coalition still around? That's what those two organizations were all about. And we freely admit that there is unfortunately a lot of multicultural leftist garbage circulating though Campus Life that unfortunately gets shoved down freshman's throats.</p>
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[quote]
These groups help to create an unfavorable perception of the doctrine of open-mindedness as it pertains to Cornell.
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</p>
<p>The key word here is perception, not reality. But then again, I suppose reality has a well-known liberal bias.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Additionally, my point is not to speak for the entire campus. My point is to simply point out that Cornell is not as open-minded as people claim it to be. Because many of the same people who hail the virtues of being open-minded are the exact same people who turn around and disrupt Republicans' events, simply because they disagree with a certain ideology presented.
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</p>
<p>But the point is that Cornell isn't any more or any less open-minded than any other top private university. Political correctness pervades all through academia. And the disruptions you speak of are not indicative of the entire student body, and aren't all that outside of the norm for campus activity across the country. And let's face it, the campus conservatives don't have the cleanest histories either. Perhaps they have cleaned up their act this year, I don't know.</p>
<p>And no, while you may not agree with the tactics used, what the silent protesters did at the Ashcroft speech wasn't wrong. No laws were broken. The same can't be said of the last two attorney generals of the Bush administration.</p>
<p>applejack: I'm sorry you feel this way, but I'm not going to argue with you on this matter.</p>
<hr>
<p>"All the proliferation of weapons will do is proliferate unfortunate accidents whereby people who don't know how to..."</p>
<p>I don't see this happening at the colleges where conceal/carry is currently allowed. And talk about speaking in general terms.</p>
<p>"All of the evidence shows that concealed weapons (or any sort of firearm, for that matter) is not likely to deter a tragedy like the one that happened at Virginia Tech or Columbine."</p>
<p>What evidence could possibly be provided to prove this point? Sure, one can conduct studies and issue surveys, but unless there is actually a live case-scenario I don't think this is a fair statement to make. Now I argue that the very knowledge that someone has a gun could deter a crazed maniac from attempting another V-Tech. And, in the worse-case-scenario, the presence of an armed person could at least prevent more bloodshed than was planned.</p>
<p>But that's another story. Again, getting back to my point: You state that the entire resolution was "ridiculous" (and I'm sure you don't even know exactly what was within the resolution), and that is your right to do so (If safety is ridiculous, then...). But many people (mainly liberals) share your view, just as many conservatives believe that many liberal ideas and measures are ridiculous. On Cornell's campus, however, the case has been that (far too often) it is the conservative cause that is put down, before it has even been fully stated, by those who falsely claim to be open-minded.</p>
<p>"But the point is that Cornell isn't any more or any less open-minded than any other top private university. Political correctness pervades all through academia. And the disruptions you speak of are not indicative of the entire student body, and aren't all that outside of the norm for campus activity across the country."</p>
<p>That was never the point I tried to make (I don't even believe that was the intent of the person who started this thread). I always wrote on the notion of open-mindedness at Cornell, never relative to other campuses. If this is the norm at other campuses, a point that I'm not arguing against, then it is wrong at these places as well. </p>
<p>"Individuals who paint in such broad brushed strokes (like mrsopresident) obviously haven't reached a level of nuance and perception that one would hope a Cornell education would provide"</p>
<p>I'm sorry you feel this way AND that you could have come to such a conclusion about me based off of one post.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You state that the entire resolution was "ridiculous" (and I'm sure you don't even know exactly what was within the resolution), and that is your right to do so (If safety is ridiculous, then...).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think it is pretty obvious that the entire resolution was intended to get a rise out of the campus. If safety is the underlying issue, I would hope that any Cornell study could find a lot more pragmatic and thoughtful ideas addressing campus safety than the one proposed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That was never the point I tried to make.
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</p>
<p>We've mostly been discussing whether or not the campus environment is open to non-liberal opinion... e.g. "open-minded". A lot of us agree that it is. You have been suggesting otherwise.</p>
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[quote]
I'm sorry you feel this way AND that you could have come to such a conclusion about me based off of one post.
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</p>
<p>Perhaps you should have elaborated a bit more in your original post then. But it's slowly becoming obvious that your views are a bit more nuanced than your one-liner about Cornellians not being tolerant of others... whether it be religiously, politically, or socially.</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>By the way, for ease of reading, you can make quotes by putting brackets around the word 'quote', and ending it with a forward slash:</p>
<p>[ quote ] [ / quote]</p>
<p>Just get rid of the spaces, and there you go!</p>
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[quote]
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
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applejack: I'm sorry you feel this way, but I'm not going to argue with you on this matter.
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</p>
<p>I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just relaying verifiable facts about this administration (and actions that would typically be taken against such criminal offenses) and why, perhaps, you are facing discrimination. I'm actually trying to help your cause - sifting out the current administration from true conservative ideology.</p>
<p>"By the way, for ease of reading, you can make quotes by putting brackets around the word 'quote', and ending it with a forward"</p>
<p>Thanks. I always wondered how that was done.</p>
<p>
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Thanks. I always wondered how that was done.
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</p>
<p>No problem. The next thing you know we will be standing around a campfire singing kumbuya.</p>
<p>cayuga, the c<em>nt festival im referring to was at RPCC....not the vagina monologues. vagina monologues are fine. i figured people wouldnt get the c</em>nt fair reference...it was a small event. nonetheless paid for with our money. and yes they posted c*nt on fliers all over north campus. just wanted to clear that up...im a not a total prude haha.</p>
<p>by the way, the talk about the CR concealed carry thing. I actually agree with you guys that it was ridiculous. I know the people involved w/ it...and it was literally the brainchild of like 3 people on this campus. It was really dumb. The signs were put out by 2 people. The problem is, there are so few people in Cornell Republicans that a couple radical republicans get a platform to speak for all the republicans at cornell. I agree that the concealed carry really hurt the image of conservatives on this campus (espcially in taking advantage of the northern illinois tragedy for political gain) and I personally told that to the person in charge of it. The amount of current, relevant issues they could have pursued was endless...and they chose that ridiculous issue. Just proves CR doesnt answer to anyone and has no leadership (bc the leadership is the same as the membership).</p>
<p>and cayuga...i even agree with you that the concealed carry thing was designed just to get a rise out of the campus. i think it was controversy for the sake of controversy. haha so we dont disagree on <em>everything</em></p>
<p>^I agree with your points on the gun control issue. I too know a few members of the CR leadership and I expressed my concerns about the proposal to them, but obviously they didn't listen. Although I do some some members of the group did not support the gun control issue. The leadership of the organization is radical and I think it is those few people who give the CR group a bad name.</p>
<p>
[quote]
cayuga, the c*nt festival im referring to was at RPCC....not the vagina monologues. vagina monologues are fine.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, then I stand corrected. But the event you are referring to must be a fairly fringe thing, and a lot of college campuses have events like that.</p>
<p>I imagine it must have been organized by Campus Life, which as I have pointed out repeatedly, is a place for the "far-left" on campus. My freshmen year, I was president of my residence hall, and was repeatedly told I couldn't host things like a "Date Auction" because it would be offensive and "heteronormal", which seemed really silly to me. </p>
<p>But my point all along is that Campus Life is in no way representative of the professors or student body at Cornell, and the vast majority of Cornellians are tolerant... and even accepting... of other opinions. It's really only an issue on North during freshmen year. After that students start living everywhere -- fraternities, West, co-ops, Collegetown, etc. and you don't need to deal with that sort of environment at all. And even then, nobody forced you to go to the festival, just as nobody forces you to attend any of the different religious services that take place on campus. Some people go to festivals celebrating human anatomy others go to Ash Wednesday services. That's the way the world works.</p>
<p>And no, the Review and the College Republican's don't necessarily help their cause by coming so far out of right wing. But if it wasn't for their crazy stances, they wouldn't get any attention on campus. And that's what most student groups really are all about: attention. Read the papers: at Brown students just pied a NY Times journalist. At Yale a girl claimed to have induced abortion multiple time. At Harvard, the students knocked down a huge snow ***** and causes all sorts of controversy.</p>
<p>Cornell is no different. And if certain students spent less time complaining about really trivial things at Cornell (like how they need to walk five minutes to get to class, or how they have to (gasp!) study, or how guess what.. it snows in the Northeast!, or how the residence hall directors are really liberal), they might be able to start getting a lot more out of the wonderful educational opportunities.</p>
<p>I realize I am at an advantage because I speak as a recent graduate. But it's not nearly as bad (snowy, steep, liberal, hard) as people make it out to be. Honestly.</p>
<p>"espcially in taking advantage of the northern illinois tragedy for political gain"</p>
<p>Funny, as the leader of the College Republicans specifically stated in the Daily Sun that this event was not an attempt to take "advantage of the northern illinois tragedy." Also, as a member of the College Republicans, I can say that conceal/carry was discussed among the group before this tragic event took place.</p>
<p>Also, while I completely disagree with you that the leadership of the CRs was radical this past year, please note that the present leadership of the CRs is completely different from what it was this last year. Speaking in more knowledgeable terms, the current leadership is by no means radical! Simply doing things that some don't believe in doesn't necessarily make you radical (not that radical is always bad, anyway).</p>
<p>Also, I can not stress the importance of speaking of the CRs and Review on different terms. The CRs do not represent the Review, and the Review does not represent the CRs. Both organizations have different goals, as well as different means of achieving their goals.</p>