<p>Lo, these many years ago, I was hired as a special ed teacher in the Pontiac, MI public schools. Upon signing my very first contract, I was told I had to also either join the teacher's union or not be hired again. That was my first exposure to teacher's unions and I did not like it.</p>
<p>Since I was so, well suspicious is the best word I can think of, of the whole teacher's union thing, I decided I should become involved. A "rep" spot became open at my school and it was offered to me and I was eventually appointed. So I attended meetings. Eventually, I became a Board member (special ed representative).</p>
<p>I was the lone voice (and, believe me, it was lonely) at times for actually considering the students. I remember being horrified at the idea that the union wanted to force teachers to NOT take their kids to the school library to read books because the school district was being forced (due to the plunging economy of the times) to cut back on library staff. When push came to shove, the student's well-being was definitely NOT the union's primary concern.</p>
<p>In our excellent school system, the teachers are very well-paid, but most of them do have Master's degrees.</p>
<p>I like to think they have the students' best interests at heart, but a few years ago during salary negotiations that weren't going so well...the teachers staged a "slowdown." Didn't come in early or stay late to help students or do anything extra. It only hurt the students and was very bad for the district's reputation.</p>
<p>Even teachers that didn't want to do this succumbed to pressure from the union & other teachers.</p>
<p>I don't see what the big deal is. That is the whole purpose of unions. Give more job security. It is not the teachers' problem that they are no longer needed, wanted.</p>
<p>Inner city school districts have a whole different set of problems from suburban ones. Most of the great teachers in our schools started off in NYC until they couldn't take the conditions any more. They were unionized in the city and they are unionized out here. They didn't suddenly become good teachers when they moved to the burbs.</p>
<p>"That is the whole purpose of unions. Give more job security. It is not the teachers' problem that they are no longer needed, wanted."</p>
<p>One of the reasons the US has historically done well economically (put aside the last two presidential terms when we've pretty much ignored basic economics...), is that we have a reasonably unfettered labor market. In France (where I spent a couple of years), it is virtually impossible to fire anyone, for any reason (gross negligence and criminal activity are of course fireable offenses, but the review process - not unlike that in NYC - is interminable and the employee is getting paid the entire time...). Sounds like great job security. </p>
<p>However, their unemployment rate hovers around 10%, v. that in the US which hovers around 5%. Why? Employers won't hire unless they are absolutely certain they need the person.</p>
<p>In the private sector, jobs get destroyed all the time (for the theory, see Joseph Schumpeter, who was Samuelson's professor at Harvard...) - this happens on Wall Street and Detroit. But they also get created in sectors of the economy that have a higher need. Unless someone has no skills (or is lazy or incompetent), there are jobs to be had (even in recessions). It is traumatic for a while for the individual of course, but then again, I think most of us would take being unemployed (and there are safety nets) for a brief period of time in this country to being fully employed at a subsistence level in a third world country.</p>
<p>Now, no one doubts that there needs to be due process when someone is accused of harassment or sexual misconduct - but we do need to question why the process is so tortured. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if someone is chronically late, what exactly are the rights that are being protected? In the private sector, no one is going to fire you for a couple of tardies, but at some point your supervisor is going to have a word with you. If the behavior continues, you get fired. </p>
<p>I'd be very interested in hearing why the union feels this type of behavior should be protected.</p>
<p>You are right, we are the laughingstock of the world, but not because of the reasons you mention. We are the laughingstock because most of the world does not educate the masses and test them as we do. They know that they only use the results of their cream of the crop on math and science tests, while we include everyone, even kids in Special Ed, which they never would. They are laughing because they know that they will always be ahead of us because of this. We are comparing apples to oranges again. As to the teachers sitting and being paid, how quick we are to condemn the teachers especially when kids NEVER lie about anything! Remembr the Salem Witch Trials? A student in my building was trying to keep his friends out of trouble and decided that distracting the administration and teacher would take care of that, so he self-inflicted wounds and alleged that the teacher on hall duty did it. Luckily, he bragged to his buddies and was overheard, but if that hadn't happened? The police came and were about to cart the teacher off. Once of many examples. Have bad things happened? Yes, of course. But let's give teachers the same consideration that should be given everyone in this country. And BTW, I am not a proponent of unions, either, but with so many parents nowadays coming to school with their lawyers, I don't see any other out for teachers.</p>
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They know that they only use the results of their cream of the crop on math and science tests, while we include everyone, even kids in Special Ed, which they never would. We are comparing apples to oranges again.
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<p>While this is often repeated by the unions, it is ABSOLUTELY false. People who can look at data with objectivity know that that canard has died a long time ago.</p>
<p>Do yourself a favor and google the US Department of Education pages that cover the international tests such as TIMSS or PISA. Actually, let me save you some time:</p>
<p>All estimates for the United States are based on the performance of students from both public and private schools, unless otherwise indicated. All countries were required to draw random, nationally representative samples of students and schools.
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<p>The extensive data made available by tests such as PISA allow for deep analysis of the pools, including SES differences and level of schools. That is why it is so easy to debunk the myth of "creaming the pool" for the tests. </p>
<p>Think the US Department of Education would not use the argument of skewed testing as an excuse ... if it were available.</p>
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We are the laughingstock because most of the world does not educate the masses and test them as we do.
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<p>This statement is easily called into doubt by considering how much farther students advance during junior high in many countries, where attendance in junior high is free (that is, tax-subsidized, as here), compulsory, and universally provided. Most of the advantage several other countries have over the United States in international educational comparisons is racked up during the years when United States students are languishing in underchallenging middle schools.</p>
<p>OK...I FINALLY read the article in the paper. Seems to me the issue in NYC is NOT the teachers' unions....it's the very slow processing of these issues. Xiggi...teachers unions do not support criminals or those who are causing harm to children. Teachers unions also do not support keeping poor teachers at all costs. To be honest, teachers unions (where I am) DO support the use of proper protocol to dismiss teachers for a variety of reasons. This article actually stated that the issue is one of the time that it is taking to process these issues...get them through the pipeline. It seems to me that the NYC schools should be looking at HOW they are doing this, and why it is taking so long. My guess is the unions would support that. Bottom line is that as long as there is a teacher on "leave", a permanent replacement cannot be hired. That is something our union is voracious about. If someone can't do the job...get rid of them...document what you need to do, and do it all in a timely fashion. The district is doing NO ONE any favors by dragging this process out (well except those getting paid while not working). </p>
<p>I have been part of committees that have studied education overseas and here. There are many issues contributing to performance differences...not JUST unions. There are cultural and social issues as well as differences in the structures of schools outside of the United States. </p>
<p>Yes, perhaps someone with strength in understanding would be able to interpret the differences easily, but to be honest, most folks look at the bottom line and not anything between the top and bottom.</p>
<p>"I like to think they have the students' best interests at heart, but a few years ago during salary negotiations that weren't going so well...the teachers staged a "slowdown." Didn't come in early or stay late to help students or do anything extra. It only hurt the students and was very bad for the district's reputation"</p>
<p>Yep. Many teachers do come in early and stay late (with no extra pay) to help students and do extras. That is because they do have the students' best interests at heart. The reason that the teachers most likely did this was to nudge the district into moving with negotiations. More often than not, the taxpayers are not even aware of what's going on until it affects their children. It is their job to let the school board know. Quite often the taxpayers (parents) support the teachers and are upset that they are not being treated fairly by the school board that they elected.</p>
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Seems to me the issue in NYC is NOT the teachers' unions....it's the very slow processing of these issues. Xiggi...teachers unions do not support criminals or those who are causing harm to children. Teachers unions also do not support keeping poor teachers at all costs. To be honest, teachers unions (where I am) DO support the use of proper protocol to dismiss teachers for a variety of reasons. This article actually stated that the issue is one of the time that it is taking to process these issues...get them through the pipeline. It seems to me that the NYC schools should be looking at HOW they are doing this, and why it is taking so long. My guess is the unions would support that.
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<p>Thumper, there are plenty of sources available to find the correct information regarding the rubber rooms, starting with the circumstances of their creation. Nobody is denying that their current use is nothing short of appalling, and possibly inhuman. I think you'll have little problems in findings web sources that range from documentaries decrying the incredible bad sanitary conditions all the way to the documented exchanges between Weingarten and John Stossel. I also think that you'll have few problems finding the accounts of Sol Stern and copies of the chart that describes how many steps it takes for a teacher to be fired in New York according to the Collective Bargaining agreements. I believe that you'll find an intriguing parallel between the length of the chart and the reasons why teachers who no longer can have access to school children have to remain in the rubber rooms for such an extended period of time. You may also wonder what happened before more than 700 teachers were forced in the rubber asylum. What did they do ... ten years ago with pedophiles and the incompetent? </p>
<p>Of course, ALL the blame cannot be left at the door of the UFT. A lot of it should be sent to the former occupants of 110 Livingston Street. However, the unrelenting anti-education agenda of the unions in NYC --and throughout the nation-- is as identifiable as it is despicable. As much their role was highly justifiable in the early 1960s when the fate of a mostly women workforce required strong representation, today the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction, and this is costing the United States a heavy price.</p>
<p>"As to the teachers sitting and being paid, how quick we are to condemn the teachers especially when kids NEVER lie about anything! Remembr the Salem Witch Trials?"</p>
<p>Re-read the para in my post where I talk about due process. And note it is not just kids who lie to get others in trouble - I know of cases in the workplace where it has been done as well. </p>
<p>Many parents know how hard it is to be a teacher (we have to live with the teenagers too!), and we are largely supportive. But we also see a lot of incompetence that wouldn't be tolerated in the workplace and rules put in place by collective bargaining agreements that make it impossible discipline wayward teachers or even make needed changes.</p>
<p>I'm sure teachers unions have done a lot of good and in some cases were sorely needed. However, their recent history has not been one of progressive change and the cause is not helped when 'teacher-bashing' is the first response to even the mildest criticism.</p>
<p>Truthfully, were I in a teacher's union, I'd pay a lot of attention to the trends in private and charter schools and home-schooling - there is a strong message here. And then I'd pay close attention to some of the tutoring services that are popping up using Indian tutors via the internet - technology is going to make it a lot easier parents to vote with their pocketbooks over the next decade. Combine that with the declining student populations after this peak year, and you're going to see a lot of pressure on school budgets - and teacher's salaries - as school boards look for alternative ways to educate our kids.</p>
<p>Actually, I think it's reasonable that they pay teachers until a case is proven against them. Honestly, my only suggestion is that they have the teachers do something useful rather than just sitting there and get the system working quicker so they don't have so many teachers in the rubber room.</p>
<p>A school librarian in our NYC school was put in the rubber room for an allegation, by a well-known troublemaking student, of 'inappropriate touching'. The student in question is homophobic and has admitted (to students) of doing that just so the "homosexual bastard loses his job." Students tried to speak out that it was incredibly unfair to listen to this homophobic student as opposed to a well-respected librarian, but he's been in the rubber room for half a year now.</p>
<p>It is certainly a tragedy when a respected teacher is put in the rubber room for six months. And I think all of us feel for someone unfairly accused.</p>
<p>But re-read xiggi's post - particulary the part about the onerous process requirements mandated by the collective bargaining agreements. This is a case of the law of unintended consequences - and it is the process that the union put in place that is preventing justice from being done.</p>
<p>I can assure you that were something like this to happen in my company, it would be investigated promptly and fairly, with full respect for due process.</p>
<p>Oh, yes, those random representative samples - the only kids taking the test are the ones that were able to stay the college-prep course (ie - the cream of the crop). Others are already out of school and being apprenticed or working by the time the tests are taken. Not everyone goes to the end of high school.</p>
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Oh, yes, those random representative samples - the only kids taking the test are the ones that were able to stay the college-prep course (ie - the cream of the crop). Others are already out of school and being apprenticed or working by the time the tests are taken. Not everyone goes to the end of high school.
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<p>If the first baseless argument did not stick, let's throw another one! After all, if other countries do better, they either must cheat on the test or measure different pools. </p>
<p>Would it not be easy to READ the reports? Reading the reports about the international tests might help understand that they are administered to 4th and 8th graders (TIMSS) or to 15 years old (PISA.) For your further information, many countries have mandatory education laws until 16 or 18, and the students that are in the technical AND vocational systems ARE included in PISA. In addition, our dropout rates in 9th grade are nothing to be proud of.</p>