<p>I am considering transfering undergraduate schools. I would be going from a relatively unknown liberal arts college (ranked 90-100 in US news and world report) to the University of Michigan. I know i could really stand out at my current school but I am concerned because it does not send a lot of undergrads to top notch law schools. Would transfering to U of M be advantageous in the scheme of law school admissions? Holding everything else pretty constant of course.... I won't base my decision to transfer on this, but I would take it into consideration with all the other reasons I am considering transfering(enviroment, social scene, ext)</p>
<p>The ranking of one's undergraduate college is not highly influential. By that, I mean that it is not nearly as influential as one's GPA and LSAT score. Look at where the students from the most elite law schools attended undergraduate college. Many colleges are represented; some of which I do not recognize, despite the fact they are in my home state or region. Simply put, if you have the GPA and LSAT, you can get into any Law School regardless of your college's ranking.</p>
<p>The difference is that students from higher ranked colleges, especially the most elite colleges like MIT and Harvard, get cut slack on their GPA. All else being equal, the student from Harvard with a 3.5 is going to be looked upon more favorably than the student with a 3.5 from John Doe State. This makes practical sense, as Harvard is not only more attractive but also more challenging. </p>
<p>The key for students at lower ranked colleges is not only getting a high GPA, but also scoring well on the LSAT. This proves they can compete intellectually with the cream of the crop.</p>
<p>Ranking matters, but dominate the GPA and LSAT, and it is hardly decisive.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is, Michigan's "high" number of admits to top law schools is much more dependent on the student than the school. Lots of michigan residents attend U-Mich despite acceptances to the Ivies because it is much cheaper and they want to save money for graduate/professional schools. The reputation of the school gives little or no boost to a person's GPA for admissions purposes. Blaze991 is right in that only the very elite private schools get some kind of bonus to their gpa when applying to law schools, but even that generalization is in doubt (MIT has relatively poor law placement compared to the other top 5 colleges).</p>
<p>The only reason I can see of transferring is if you go to some kind of community college or very low-tier school where standards are extremely lax. Law schools determine the quality of your institution by taking the average LSAT and GPA of your insitituiton into an index. If your school has a lot of 4.0's but only averages 150 on the LSAT, expect to get points deducted from your gpa.</p>
<p>Even then, it is probably a more worthwhile investment of time just to get a higher LSAT score, get better recommednations and ec's at your lower tier school, and try to differentiate yourself from the pack.</p>
And I can't believe this assertion is being made again. Of course it matters.</p>
<p>At Harvard Law School, about 39% of the students went to Ivy League schools as undergrads. Add in Amherst, Duke, Stanford, Berkeley and Williams and you've accounted for more than half the class.</p>
<p>It's even more stark at Yale Law School, where about 44% of the class attended Ivy League schools as undergrads. Adding in Amherst, Duke, Stanford, Berkeley and Williams gets you to about 60%.</p>
<p>^^^ dont you think it has more to do with the student than the school? the average person who is going to ace their LSAT is more likely to be at one of the 'elites' than at Podunk U.</p>
<p>
[quote]
^^Yes, that is the clear explanation, which has been offered in probably every single one of the countless other threads on this topic.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, but that explanation is also pure speculation.</p>
<p>The question of whether the reputation of an undergraduate school matters to law schools is not completely specified. To what law schools do you plan on applying? Harvard, Yale, and Stanford? Well, if so, then yes you better be applying from a reputable institution. Are you applying to UVA, UT, Georgetown, or UChicago? Well, a reputable institution would help, but having a solid GPA and solid LSAT will give you a decent enough shot.</p>
<p>From what I have seen and from my conversations with law professors who have participated in admissions committees, admissions counselors, and my counselor, the higher in law school rank you go, the more a undergraduate institution factors in your decision for admissions.</p>
<p>NSPEDS - How does applying to a law school (Georgetown) from the same undergrad school (Georgetown) affect the decision? I guess what I am asking is do law schools like their own better than "outsiders"? (This is of course assuming that the applicant is qualified by gpa and lsat).</p>
<p>1) I remember reading that your daughter is in her third year. If that is the case, and her GPA is at least a 3.8, I urge her to apply for Georgetown Law Center's Early Assurance program. The EA program allows top Georgetown juniors (including transfers) to bypass the LSAT AND the LSDAS, and apply for admissions at GULC. According to the career-center, it enables juniors to pursue a "less traditional" curriculum in their senior year.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that even if your D does meet the 3.8GPA cutoff, the process is still competitive. I believe up to 12 out of 48 applicants were accepted last year. The pre-law advisor mentioned that even if you are rejected, the fact that you will have your recs, personal statement, and so forth complete gives you a good head-start for the upcoming application season.</p>
<p>2) If you do not wish to pursue the EA route, I am unsure what advantage being a GU undergrad bestows in terms of admissions into GULC. I believe GULC conducts group-interviews on campus, but that is all I know. You should talk to the pre-law advisor; she is FANTASTIC. Also, she apparently drinks coffee every week with the dean of admissions at GULC, so I am sure she would be a great source of information:)</p>
<p>We boast a 25% admit rate into GULC, with the mean LSAT/GPA being 167/3.64. I read somewhere that the overall mean is 169/3.67. It seems that GU students might even get slight bump in the LSAT/GPA department.</p>
<p>"To what law schools do you plan on applying? Harvard, Yale, and Stanford? Well, if so, then yes you better be applying from a reputable institution."</p>
<p>Yep. If you go to any middly-piddly coolege like any of the following, you have no chance: </p>
<p>Abilene Christian University
Alma College
Albertson College of Idaho
Andrews University
Arizona State University<br>
Austin College<br>
Ball State University
Barry University
Baruch College<br>
Bentley College
Bethel College<br>
California State University - Long Beach
California State University - Los Angeles<br>
Calvin College
Cambridge College
City College - CUNY
Covenant College
Creighton University<br>
Doane College
Drake University<br>
Drew University<br>
Drexel University<br>
East Tennessee University<br>
Ewha Women's University
Fayetteville State University<br>
Florida A&M University
Florida International University<br>
Florida State University
George Mason University
Goshen College
Grove City College
Hampton University
Hillsdale College
Hope University<br>
Houghton College<br>
Hunter College - CUNY<br>
Illinois State University<br>
Iona College<br>
Iowa State University
Ithaca College
Jackson State University<br>
Korea University<br>
Lake Forest College<br>
Lamar University
Lee University<br>
Linfield College
Loyola University - New Orleans<br>
Loyola University - Chicago<br>
Luther College<br>
Manchester College<br>
McMaster University
Minnesota State University
Ner Israel Rabbinical College<br>
New Jersey Institute of Technology<br>
Niagara University<br>
Northeastern State University<br>
Northwest College<br>
Ohio University<br>
Oklahoma State University<br>
Queens College
Reed College
Saint John Fisher College
Saint John's University<br>
San Francisco State University<br>
Santa Clara University
Seton Hall University
Southeast Missouri State University<br>
Southern Oregon University<br>
Southwestern University
SUNY Geneseo<br>
Texas A&M University
Texas Christian University<br>
Touro College
Truman State University
University of Akron<br>
University of Alabama<br>
University of Alberta<br>
University of Arkansas<br>
University of Central Arkansas
University of Colorado - Denver
University of Dayton<br>
University of Kansas
University of Kentucky<br>
University of Lethbridge
University of Ljubljana<br>
University of Mississippi<br>
University of Missouri<br>
University of Nebraska<br>
University of North Dakota
University of North Texas<br>
University of Oklahoma<br>
University of Puget Sound<br>
University of Rhode Island<br>
University of Richmond<br>
University of Rochester<br>
University of San Diego<br>
University of San Francisco<br>
University of Saskatchewan
University of South Florida<br>
University of Southern Mississippi<br>
University of Sydney<br>
University of Tennessee
University of Texas - Dallas<br>
University of Texas - El Paso<br>
University of Texas - Tyler<br>
University of Tulsa
University of Utah<br>
University of Vermont<br>
University of Western Ontario<br>
University of Windsor
Utah State University<br>
Virginia Commonwealth University<br>
Western Michigan University
Western Connecticut State University<br>
Wheaton College
Wichita State University<br>
York University </p>
<p>nspeds, while you data might show correlation, it dosn't show cause and effect. I agree with Shiboing Boing on this one. its the students, not the school. its true that the most brilliant students tend to attend the most prestigious institutions. but that dosn't answer the OP's question.</p>
<p>i don't think it would be worth transferring. study hard for the LSAT and get good grades. those matter much, much more.</p>
<p>I don't know why I'm bothering to post again in this thread, except that I can't stand seeing bad advice. The OP didn't identify the LAC that he/she is currently attending, but if it's 90-100 on the US News LAC list, then it would be one of the following: Goucher, Bennington, Albion, Hampshire, St. Mary's (MD), Hope College, College of St. Benedict, Ohio Wesleyan, Transylvania, Lake Forest, Luther, Coe, Juniata. These are schools that send one or two graduates to a top law school once every few years. (HLS currently enrolls one graduate of each of St. Mary's, Hope, Lake Forest and Luther, none from the others, while YLS currently enrolls one graduate of Ohio Wesleyan, none from the others). Michigan sends dozens to top law schools every year (currently 23 at HLS and 5 at YLS). </p>
<p>Assuming the OP scores high enough on the LSAT to be in the running for a top law school (and presumably this will not depend on where the OP is attending college), then if he/she can get good grades at Michigan, getting into a top law school is highly likely. In contrast, even if he/she graduates at the top of the class at one of the foregoing LACs, getting into a top law school will still be a crapshoot. </p>
<p>There may be a number of other factors that go into the decision of whether to transfer, but solely focusing on the factor of getting into a top law school, it's a no brainer.</p>
<p>
[quote]
nspeds, while you data might show correlation, it dosn't show cause and effect.
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</p>
<p>Huh? I am not arguing that causation is necessarily the case. I am arguing that it is highly probable that there is causation (in any other case, you are just misusing the post-hoc fallacy).</p>
<p>Look... here are (roughly) the top 20 schools according to the number of students represented at HLS:
1) Harvard
2) Yale
3) Stanford
4) Princeton
5) UPenn
6) Brown
7) Cal
8) Columbia
9) Cornell
10) Duke
11) UCLA
12) Dartmouth
13) Georgetown
14) UT – Austin
15) University of Michigan
16) Notre Dame
17) Northwestern
18) NYU
19) UVA
20) Rice</p>
<p>Is it a coincidence that only three of the schools in that list are not listed in the USNews Top 25? No.</p>
<p>Sure, concentrating on LSAT and GPA is a no-brainer. But do Harvard students have an advantage over York University students at HLS? There is no doubt that they do. I've seen the grids.</p>
<p>I think I'm a lot closer to Nspeds than Cosar.</p>
<p>this statement is just retarded:
"Assuming the OP scores high enough on the LSAT to be in the running for a top law school (and presumably this will not depend on where the OP is attending college), then if he/she can get good grades at Michigan, getting into a top law school is highly likely. In contrast, even if he/she graduates at the top of the class at one of the foregoing LACs, getting into a top law school will still be a crapshoot."</p>
<p>hmmm. Lsat and gpa are close to 90 percent of what schools consider. I'll agree with Nsped that one's institution might be factor and give one an advantege. but, "even if he/she graduates at the top of the class at one of the foregoing LACs, getting into a top law school will still be a crapshoot." that's retarded. I'm guessing your not very familiar with the process.</p>
<p>also your reference to that stat is somewhat flawed. of course michigan will send more partly due to its larger size.</p>
<p>furthermore, these stats are worthless. they don't necessarily show that adcoms prefer applicants from prestigious schools. </p>
<p>this is how i think it breaks down. applicant's from more prestigious schools are more ambitious and did better on their SAT's. they receive better grades and MOST IMPORTANTLY, perform better on the LSAT. that's why there more represented. not because adcomms really care that much about the prestige of one's UG. they really care about the US NEWS rankings which leads them to worship the LSAT.</p>
<p>Thanks for your assessment of my mental capacity.</p>
<p>I am quite familiar with the process - I'm guessing quite a bit moreso than you. I can assure you that every top law school takes the strength of the undergraduate institution into account in a significant way. Some very heavily, some less heavily, but all significantly.</p>
<p>Your advice is simply terrible, but I should have just left my thoughts where they stood on page one: believe what you want.</p>
<p>one from Luther college, with a gpa of 3.8 and a lsat of 172
another applicant from Harvard with a gpa of 3.8 and a lsat of 170 (this is especially true, comparing Luther college to Michigan).</p>
<p>if there other factors are similar, the luther college applicant is more attractive, I think.</p>
<p>It really is a numbers game. one's UG won't signifigantly contribute to the process. its a soft factor.</p>