For those who want to honor Confederate ancestors, there are a number of other flags which were not used by the Klan or by segregationists to threaten and terrorize people after the war. People who actually care about their history can and do use those flags. People who choose this flag, which WAS used in that manner for 150+ years, are responsible for the connotations they are evoking. You can’t fly a swastika flag and say, “I just meant it as an ancient Buddhist symbol of the sun!” That image was co-opted by racist murderers, and you can’t use it without repeating their threats.
I agree that if you adopt certain visuals to define your life, whether it be clothing or other adornments or flags that you know carry offensive connotations, don’t be surprised if people judge you to be a offensive person.
However, the CSA itself was founded to protect slavery, so wouldn’t any CSA flag (whether it is the well known battle flag (with the X pattern) or the lesser known first national flag (“stars and bars”)) be a symbol of such?
Of course, the lesser recognition of the CSA first national flag compared to the CSA battle flag means that Georgia’s 1956-2001 flag, with the CSA battle flag prominently incorporated, attracted political controversy, while Georgia’s 2003-current flag, which closely resembles the CSA first national flag, seems to be less of a “hot” topic.
“wouldn’t any CSA flag (whether it is the well known battle flag (with the X pattern) or the lesser known first national flag (“stars and bars”)) be a symbol of such?”
IMHO, yes, but there’s at least an argument to be made about the CSA-only flags and honorable ancestors. I would not personally honor the CSA in any manner, but I think that reasonable people can disagree about the message of flying those flags, depending on the context. The battle flag is beyond the pale in any context beyond historical study and display.
There have been several posts on this thread about young people unschooled in the true history of the Civil War, states rights, ties to slavery and so on, even stats “proving” that perhaps it’s more likely than not that they WOULDN’T know why a confederate flag is offensive to many.
So what do I see on my Facebook today but a young relative and her serious boyfriend. Boyfriend is wearing a shirt with a big confederate flag on it that says, “If this shirt offends you, you need a history lesson.” Photo of the guy’s dad shows him wearing a cap with the confederate flag on it. His “profile photo” is of a giant confederate flag. I’m pretty darn sure they both think that the flag means “states rights” AND that it offends people and that they don’t care. Ironically, they’re blue collar people from a New England state, not the south. They’re also people “liking” and sharing some pretty offensive memes about African Americans in the days following the Baltimore unrest. There is a reason I don’t bring my multiracial family to visit these relatives.
Rescind, I would say no. But ask them to come in for a chat.
My family is from the south. I grew up entirely in the north. (My grandfather, born in 1886 and the only member of his family to move north, took an academic position in the north after getting a grad degree at Vanderbilt.) I have always considered myself a northerner, not a southerner. Two great grandfather’s fought for the south, were wounded, but survived. Both lived into the 20th Century. Their identities weren’t really tied to the war. It’s something that took up 3 or 4 years of their youth. I didn’t even know until age 50 that an ancestor had owned 3 slaves, because my grandfather had been ashamed to acknowledge it. Learning that was a shock, and I still haven’t entirely come to terms with it.
I don’t have strong feelings about symbolism. I do feel that no one ever, ever in this country should have been permitted to own another person. It was a horrible decision, in which economics trumped morality and decency.
Even though the war seems far off now, there is still enormous prejudice against people in the south, even some shown here on CC. It’s seen in the many posters who won’t even consider looking at Emory, or Furman, or Ole Miss, etc. either because they are in the south or because of what their pasts represent. Or in the constant undertone by many that no school will ever be as good as an Ivy (which are all northern universities, obviously).
My D, a URM, has decided to attend a college whose chief benefactor had been a slave trader. Why? Because it has top academics, and a national student body that (one hopes) for the most part is moving past these past prejudices.
To my mind, rescinding the flag waving girls would actually perpetuate the prejudice. Yes, the Confederate flag is offensive to very many people for very legitimate reasons. It is also true, however, that a non-offensive alternative universal symbol of southern pride has not emerged over the past 150 years and that is a problem. And it is obvious that many young people haven’t thought these issues through to the extent that we adults have. That’s what college is for.
@pizzagirl, for some the war is never over. I don’t mean the civil war either.
The Reconquista is a movement to give the Southwest back to Mexico by certain hispanic group since they believe the Southwest was stolen from Mexico after the Mexican-American war.
The US military faced this issue in Bosnia back in the late 90s when the different warring groups would bring up atrocities from actions over a thousand years ago.
As someone who grew up west of the Mississippi, the whole issue is so foreign to me as is the concept of civil war re-enactments.
“a non-offensive alternative universal symbol of southern pride has not emerged over the past 150 years and that is a problem.”
Until the 70s, at the earliest, there was no discernible interest in a Southern-pride movement that wasn’t bound up with perpetuating racial oppression. Young people learn this behavior from older folks who model it for them, and the older folks were around during the 60s and don’t need to learn from a book that the flag was used for racial intimidation and terror. It’s hard to think of this knowledge as “history” when it’s in living memory in every family.
First, I think it’s absurd to suggest that these girls should have their acceptances rescinded and I certainly hope that that isn’t being seriously considered.
It is??? I have several friends whose Southern family roots go way back and who love the South and would never live anywhere else. They love the food, the landscape and the land itself, the Southern sense of family and hospitality, the literature of the South, the women they knew growing up whose strength and courage symbolized the South to them. These friends of mine don’t fly the Confederate flag – it would never occur to them. Why? Because the Confederate flag doesn’t actually represent the South – it represents a very specific ideology that happens to be localized in the South. Calling it “Southern pride” suggests that all the millions of people who live in the South either agree with those sentiments or else they somehow are not proud of the place where they live. And saying that the South, or any other region, needs some kind of symbol to show pride and that’s why we should give a pass to flying the Confederate flag, is just silly.
Again, you should feel free to fly the Confederate flag as long as you know that most people will interpret that as either a statement that you support the idea of the Confederacy and you wish that attempt to break away from the US had succeeded, or, more generally, that you are a racist pig. To whoever asked “who gets to decide what flying a flag means, the one seeing it or the one flying it?” I ask “who cares?” As with everything else you do or say, you’re sending a message. You should be really careful that the message you’re sending is the one you want to send, and that you fully understand what the message is that people are receiving, before you do it. I hope those girls learn that lesson from this brouhaha.
(Also, I live in California and I have never seen the CA state flag flown or shown anywhere that wasn’t actually a state government building or something like that.)
Really? I feel like I see the image or a stylized version of it on merchandise all the time, but maybe that is because I like the design so I notice it. Granted, it is big in tourist wear, but also mainstream stuff like surfwear, pricey decorative pillows and on the walls of restaurants, like Bandera. My D has a wallet with the design, and my S had a skateboard with it, as well as a couple of shirts and a cap with a version of the image. I’ve seen cell phone covers, necklaces and beach towels with it as well.
“Again, you should feel free to fly the Confederate flag as long as you know that most people will interpret that as either a statement that you support the idea of the Confederacy and you wish that attempt to break away from the US had succeeded, or, more generally, that you are a racist pig.”
LOL. It’s a cultural signifier of the highest order. Like proclaiming that you love Honey Boo Boo. Which you’re free to do, but then realize other people are free to laugh at you.
Ah, but they do care. At least, a lot of Southerners do care, and this is a point that I think gets lost here. Some people do things specifically because they tick off other people, and some Southerners like to do things that tick off Northerners. They may or may not be racists; that can be irrelevant to this impulse. It’s not really about “Southern pride” in some high-falutin’ sense either; it’s all about: the people I don’t like won’t like it if I do this, so I’m going to do it anyway.
Even as a Southerner myself, I have to admit that it’s a little pathetic–it’s sort of like one of those colleges that sees another college as its big rival, but that other college doesn’t reciprocate the rivalry.
So, I think a big part of it is: “Nobody’s gonna tell ME to take down my Confederate flag!” Even if nobody is really bothering to tell him that.
I’m going to guess it was mostly northerners who were outraged by the photo and made a stink about it, which probably made the apology so much more difficult to cough up.
Well, they were. It’s up to you to decide if being a loyal to the British Crown is an important thing or not.
In exactly the same way, those that fought for the CSA were traitors to the USA. If loyalty to the USA is an important value for you then those that fought for the CSA should be judged accordingly.
Wait a minute; aren’t you the one who doesn’t care that your neighbors probably laugh at you for spending huge amounts of money on your kids “elite” private educations when you have a perfectly good state flagship? Why wouldn’t you get that many people in the south don’t care what a bunch of ignorant, low-class, unsophisticated people from the north think about what they choose to display. In fact, they get a huge kick out of watching them get their panties in a wad. Clearly, most American schools do a perfectly awful job of educating students about the extended period following the Civil war called “Reconstruction”. Trust me (as someone born in a northern family, but brought up in the south), southerners have plenty of excellent reasons to resent the multitude of indignities heaped on them by the fine citizens of the northern regions which extended well into the 20th century.
Sorry @pizzagirl but in this case, your house is of the clearest possible glass.
