<p>"Get “hooks” and “special talents” that you son doesn’t have? If he can’t do 5 AP classes and research a the same time, don’t even try for MIT—he can’t make it."</p>
<p>-Zipper</p>
<p>Um...The average admit for MIT has taken 5 AP classes throughout their ENTIRE high school career. And, plenty of kids haven't done research and gotten into MIT.</p>
<p>What needs to be realized is that research is by no means a requirement or something that MIT is specifically looking for. The Admissions officers don't sit at their desks and go "where is that research? Can't find it. No research? hahahahahahaahaaaa!!!" and then burn up the application. </p>
<p>Rather, MIT is looking for dedication and exhibited interest in something. Research is one of MANY ways to demonstrate this.</p>
<p>For others it can be spending 5 hours a day in grueling training for a sport so you can be the best you can be on the field. For some, it can be studying and practicing hundreds of hours of AIME and USAMO problems to qualify for IMO (or USAMO...thats sick too). Heck, for me, I spend many hours a week practicing and performing Stand-up Comedy.</p>
<p>Worriedmom! I know what you mean. I know these days so many kids are doing research. It's hard to get a measure for the depth of the research or their involvement in research.
I guess the advisor can make a difference in his/her rec letter.</p>
<p>Colleges realize that not everyone has access to research mentors/facilities. To me, the only time not having done research might be a drawback is if a school or program offers it as part of the curricukum and one doesn't participate.</p>
<p>Count DS as another one who does research sans lab. He does it under the tree in the front yard. With a laptop, snacks, mp3 files and an engaged brain, an adoring supervisor (the dog), the possibilities are endless!</p>
<p>Not sure if this has been mentioned, but a great place to do research is at any university, especially your state school. They usually offer interns which involve research. I ended up googling one up when looking for volunteering opportunities and it was not only fun and beneficial, but I even got paid $10/hour for learning!</p>
<p>Quote:
"Um...The average admit for MIT has taken 5 AP classes throughout their ENTIRE high school career. And, plenty of kids haven't done research and gotten into MIT."</p>
<p>That is not exactly saying much because averages can mislead you. For instance Jack could have taken 9 APs and Jill and Jon have each taken none (supposing their school have offered no APs). Then the average would be 3.
So, I don't don't think avg helps . . . </p>
<p>Based on AnzuMaki's point, does it matter where students perform research? Won't MIT consider if Jack researched at Stanford U (CCIS) seriously than Jill who researched at, let say, ---- Community College (fill in the blanks)?</p>
<p>It's entirely possible that Jill would get a better research experience at her local CC...more direct access to profs and no grad students. The folks I know who teach at CCs are passionate about teaching and working with students -- and that can make them terrific mentors.</p>
<p>State universities are also excellent places to find mentors. It's a great means of recruitment for the school, and I know many kids who have turned down prestigious privates for state Us -- largely because the state schools were willing to let top-notch kids into the lab much earlier than the big name schools.</p>
<p>Admissions folks want to see a student's initiative and passion, not prestige mongering. I don't think MIT gives a hoot about where a high school student does research. It could be in the family garage for the kid who comes up with some terrific invention.</p>
<p>^^yeah, MIT doesn't care where you do the research, although technically community colleges don't really have active research going on. But the caliber of the school doesn't really matter.</p>
<p>If it were grad school admissions, I would give a different answer.</p>
<p>... It is the family basement :o and the computer at my rural public school where I do most of my research. :)</p>
<p>... It was instructive to learn that the reason I had won an ISEF finalist
position to represent my state :D over other 'equal in all other respects' competitors was that I had headed out on my own using scantily available resources and contacted my mentor -to-be as my research progressed versus work done by most others in prestigious labs where their level of
contribution though high did not involve having to solve the myriads of
issues I faced.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Based on AnzuMaki's point, does it matter where students perform research?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No. Though community colleges generally don't have research programs - they're teaching schools - so you wouldn't do research there for that reason.</p>
<p>My younger son worked with a prof at a CC on a research project in middle school. Wasn't terribly sophisticated, but it did very well at the regional SF and got him some national recognition.</p>
<p>I agree with collegealum314 -- at some point, <em>where</em> one does the research begins to matter. But for high school students...I think the initiative and interest are more important. And good for you, Arwen! Last year's Intel STS winner built her project for $300 (and maybe in her garage, too). :) One of my kids loves the theoretical research side of things, but I have to say I get my socks blown off by the kids who build things that <em>work.</em></p>
<p>Just based on all the students I know who have done research, the independent projects (compsci, math, etc) are way more impressive (and cooler!) than all the lab research ones. Anyways:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, research opportunities generally don't flaunt themselves that much, you need to actively pursue them.</p>
<p>I got an unpaid compsci/bio internship at Stanford the summer after junior year by sending my resume to a doctor there. There were two other high school students on the same project as me, and it was all our own work. We wrote a paper for a medical conference at the end as well.
I have a few other friends who worked there: one had a paid programming job, another did independent cancer research, another was just a lab assistant. So, the independence of the 'research' you're doing varies quite a bit.</p>
<p>Agreed. I think a major hook for two of my friends (one currently at MIT, one at Harvard) was that they designed a really high quality pocket headphone amp in their spare time, then built and sold a batch of them. The self motivated projects are always the most interesting. My internship only takes up one line on my app, and I used the what you created essay for a neat project that I undertook entirely on a whim.</p>
<p>It seems to me a lot of people are wound up on research thing. I think simple steps like understanding engineering and taking initiative to try to build something is MITs usual candidate. I know of a friend of mine who was amazed with technology and tried to build things with spare parts. Needless to say, some of his inventions worked, some didn't. The useful ones weren't really valued, but it shows he has initiative. So, if your doing research for the sake of getting into MIT, don't waste your time Miss. Your son has to find a way to use his spare time and talent, to benefit his community or school or even another country. This bring me to another point. Research, in my opinion, is not worth as much as let's say helping third world countries and actually seeing beneficial results of your aid.</p>
<p>I'm not here to preach that research is useless, and doing stuff to actually see physical results is better, but consider the 2 perspectives. I know that, for myself, I am going to partake in research because i have this idea with electron stimulation in relation to muscular dystrophy and maybe even build a robot that helps excercice individual muscles of the body. I am also starting 2 clubs to help spread awareness of education/technology in third world countries, mainly afghan due to the multiple bombings occuring near schools. So, you see miss, if your on this board to understand why people do research, some people do it for the glory, and some just do it because school is boring and they want to apply their knowledge into solving real world problems. Tell your son TAKE INITIATIVE, it is the only way.</p>
<p>Remember this phrase, a phrase i made up and live by everyday:</p>
<p>"there's an easy way up, or the right way up, the mountain of success."</p>
<p>Good luck to you all, and remember, admission process will be a smooth ride if you do everything you love and self study or do whatever for the benefit of knowing more. Don't let school, interfere with your education.</p>
<p>High school research is one of those things like puberty, where you are all worried and misunderstood when you're trying to get what it's about, etc when you go through it, but a few years later you can look back and laugh.</p>
<p>"This bring me to another point. Research, in my opinion, is not worth as much as let's say helping third world countries and actually seeing beneficial results of your aid."</p>
<p>Delayed gratification? A lot of the most important advancements in our civilization have come from people tinkering with abstract things that nobody could have foreseen aiding people everywhere. It's important to help people when you can, but don't feel guilt tripped thinking that right now in HS or undergrad you need to save the world.</p>
<p>The most important thing a person can do at high school age is to learn the fundamentals and to build toward your future career...It is through your future career that you have the most impact to help the world.</p>
<p>Research can be valuable tool to show you how real world problems are solved. It is very different from school. It can also motivate you to get more out of your classes. For example, after doing an organic chem project you might realize how useful it would be to have all the o. chem rxns. at your fingertips. So you study harder when you take the class.</p>
<p>Community service organizations founded by high schoolers typically help the person's college app more than they do the people you are supposedly helping. For instance, if you admire Doctors without Borders and want to be a part of it, I think you are better off <em>studying</em> hard in high school, college, and med school so that you can become a good doctor and then joining Doctors without Borders.</p>
<p>Exactly. The greatest advances are not achieved by people that are running around like a chicken with their head cut off trying to do everything. It is by people who become engrossed in their career and spend years and even decades trying to push themselves to do great things THROUGH THEIR CAREER.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Community service organizations founded by high schoolers typically help the person's college app more than they do the people you are supposedly helping. For instance, if you admire Doctors without Borders and want to be a part of it, I think you are better off <em>studying</em> hard in high school, college, and med school so that you can become a good doctor and then joining Doctors without Borders.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree with the general spirit of this remark and, like you, I get quite annoyed with the notion of community service done to "look good". However, there is a serious flaw in your view, too... service is not typically something you can just turn on later in life. A habit of commitment to helping others takes years to nurture, and one needs time to develop certain skills that are critical in being a useful volunteer. </p>
<p>One can make a similarly oversimplified argument about research: the most important thing you can do to become a good research scholar is study really hard in high school and college classes to learn the basics superbly well so that you can get to the research frontier primed and ready; and so you should spend time doing only this. This is not good advice. It's important to study the basics like a fiend, but a research frame of mind is not just something you turn on at 24. You need to develop the curiosity, creativity, audacity, comfort with ambiguity and so forth very early on, and you can only do that by attacking "toy" research problems starting as soon as possible -- high school at the latest.</p>
<p>The truth is that there is no simple threshold algorithm for either service or research. One needs to start early on these things if one wants to make them a major part one's career, while at the same time remembering that the main job right now is to learn as much and as deeply as you can about as much as you possibly can from the established framework (i.e. classes and textbooks).</p>
<h2>You need to develop the curiosity, creativity, audacity, comfort with ambiguity and so forth very early on, and you can only do that by attacking "toy" research problems starting as soon as possible -- high school at the latest.</h2>
<p>I think creativity is best developed in classes for most people. I guess it depends on the field, but I know in chem you need a large base of knowledge before real creativity helps you in the lab...It just seems like most people just look up papers and do almost exactly the same thing that the authors do--just tweak it a little. I don't consider that real creativity.</p>
<p>Unless you are super-advanced, I think starting research the summer after your sophomore year is a good time.</p>
<p>"I agree with the general spirit of this remark and, like you, I get quite annoyed with the notion of community service done to "look good". However, there is a serious flaw in your view, too... service is not typically something you can just turn on later in life. A habit of commitment to helping others takes years to nurture, and one needs time to develop certain skills that are critical in being a useful volunteer. "</p>
<p>Yes, I know people who have basically devoted their life to service and they started early. Probably the volunteer experiences they had in high school were invaluable..But since this is MIT's board, I assume people are planning on having a technical or professional career.</p>