mom2college, Congrats on great score! All doors are open for your kid!
OOS / IS for residencies seems to be non-existent. D. did not expect to be invited to so many pretty far, not even in our region. She was told that she is a “regional” type of applicant since she was born in OH and went to OH UG and Med. School and did not have a single away rotation. She was flying all over country, south had definitely something against her as the most southern state was VA, but she had several in NE and she had only 4 specialty interviews in OH, out of which 3 were at her location, she rotated at 2 out of 3 locals. She did not apply to any far away Prelim programs, but couple specialty programs urged her to interview for Prelim at their locations, one of them was thru Skype. D. applied to competitive specialty.
Canadian citizens graduating from American schools do have visa issues to deal with, but I get the feeling that at programs where visas are sponsored, they are treated the same as american students from american medical schools. I recall one canadian citizen classmate specifically mentioning that he felt like he had to do especially well relative to his specialty given his citizenship, but I think that was more to make sure he would be competitive for programs that are visa friendly and have more flexibility in choosing programs. I don’t know very much about H1B and J-1 visas, which I think are the two visas medical school graduates typically get.
Not all residency funding is supported by the federal government (https://www.aamc.org/download/363940/data/atulgrover-senatebriefingpdffinal.pdf) so I imagine that explains how non-US citizens are handled.
Definitely don’t take what I’m saying as gospel, I’m certainly not an expert on this stuff.
It’s become much more difficult for Canadian citizens to get visa for residencies in the US in the last year. The Canadian government has severely restricted the list of approved residency specialties for which it will grant visas.
Canadian citizens must first obtain a certificate of need form their home province government demonstrating there is currently a shortage of doctors with X specialty. Unless a Canadian is from a more rural province (think Saskatchewan or a Maritime), it’s become almost impossible to get the certification in anything except PC fields. For example, the Canadian government allows just 5 visas for anesthesiology for the entire country and zero for orthopedics.
If you read the SDN Canadian physicians & residents’s forums, there’s been a whole lot of cursing and moaning about the changes.
I heard of two cases where Canadian citizens graduated from American Med School got residency slots at a university program successfully (is it what is called? I meant the residency program is not a community program.)
It seems both may try the H1B routes (rather than J1.) It seems both tried to pass STEP-3 as early as they could, not sure whether it is because they need that before their teaching hospital can support them with the H1B. (But likely they start the residency program with the so-called OPT? Not sure here.)
Slightly off-topic concerning Canadians or other int’ls…It seems that there are more med schools accepting int’ls. Is that because more are accepting int’ls who grew up in the US (documented and undocumented) or are they accepting more int’ls who are truly from abroad.
thanks @MiamiDAP and @iwannabe_Brown
AFAIK, there is one allopathic med school that will accept undocumented/DACA eligible US residents–Loyola.
http://www.actonadream.org/resources/medical-school/
And the trend is going the other way–fewer allopathic med schools are accepting internationals due the difficulty of placing international graduates into US residencies. For example, Mayo recently decided it will no longer consider international applicants.
http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/admissions-and-application-process/prerequisites
Failing to place grads into residencies can jeopardizes a school’s accreditation and hurts its academic reputation.
For the few cases I happen to be aware of, these int’ls are documented and actually attended colleges in US (Also, a part of K-12 education in either US or other countries where English is the official language.) The only “deficiency” may be that their parents do not live in the US for whatever reason it may be and their parents do not have the US permanent resident status. Their parents could be quite successful in their country, at least financially.
When DS had a chance to meet some of these students as an UG and beyond, he was quite surprised how resource-able/capable these students (and their families) are. Some of them could have received even better K-12 education than the students at a typical high school here in US. (e.g., one of them applied from overseas as a high school student in another country and got into a mid-tier BS/MD program where the UG education is tuition free, as I heard. That high school’s teachers are mostly Americans, and their counselor who helps their students to apply to US colleges could be better than the counselor at a typical high school here in US! Money talks! Almost all of them at these “elite international high schools” applied and got into US colleges and their families seem to have no problem to pay for it . I am aware of cases that some of these students continue onto med school and residency program like UCSF/JHU/MGH/etc.)
Another topic, I read from somewhere that a resident at some very top tier residency program could have published 20 times (likely including UG and med school as well.) And this is the AVERAGE among these residents. How can this be unless they are MD/PhD students?!
@WAY0UTWESTMOM I think there was an article about a year ago featuring an undocumented student being accepted to a Calif SOM…may have been UCSF…not sure.
on that link, there was also this mention:
"In past years, there have been a handful of undocumented students who have gained admission into medical schools throughout the country. "
So, altho Loyola may be the only one with a written policy, there are others accepting. I imagine they’re in border states.
[QUOTE=""]
And the trend is going the other way--fewer allopathic med schools are accepting internationals due the difficulty of placing international graduates into US residencies. For example, Mayo recently decided it will no longer consider international applicants.
[/QUOTE]
http://www.mayo.edu/mms/programs/md/admissions-and-application-process/prerequisites
Failing to place grads into residencies can jeopardizes a school’s accreditation and hurts its academic reputation.
[QUOTE=""]
[/QUOTE]
Makes sense.
We still see posts in the general forums here on CC from int’ls who are confident that their chances are the same/similar to domestics. It can be hard to convince them otherwise.
I don’t know about the ivy SOM admissions, but one int’l was insisting that his chances were exactly the same as domestic applicants.
If failing to place grads into residencies jeopardizes accreditation, then I wonder if more schools will limit int’l admissions once MD and DO residencies combine.
I did a quick search to find out why there’s preference for H1B over a J1–it’s because hospitals may not be able to bill for services rendered by a resident on a J1 (training) visa while they can if the resident is on a H1B visa.
In order to apply for a H1B visa, it appears that a physician must be license-eligible. To be license-eligible, a resident in most states needs to pass STEP 3.
@mom2coIIegekids
California has its own unique rules about undocumented students and their status w/r/t instate admission policies to state-support schools. I know don't know anything about those. He may have been accepted under those rules. Thanks for sharing the experience and insight.
I bumped into some slightly old info about fellowship applications (well ahead of myself. LOL.) It is interesting that in the thread, one posted that quite a many PIs at a given med school may even be hauled from other cities but the projects they lead may be at another med schools.
(It was mentioned that X school/program could be good at sending their residents to Y program in Z specialty. It makes my head spins – just too many school/program names/acronyms. It is good for a “beginner” to pick up these program names, and which program may be good at what.)
Here is what I bumped into.
The programs you mentioned are not all top 10-15 places and there is significant variance among the competitiveness of each. Where you attend medical school is also a very important factor in how competitive you are.
Harvard (MGH, BW) and UCSF are the most competitive internal medicine spots in the country. Your research is strong but you are also an MD/PhD, so it is expected that you would have more research than a regular MD student. My understanding is that IM programs usually have a pre-selected number of spots for MD/PhDs and therefore your application will be compared against similar applicants. I would imagine the MD/PhDs getting Harvard and UCSF spots have resumes that look like most associate professors, and likely have impressive Ivy league pedigrees. Certainly apply to these programs, but don’t hold your breath.
UW, UCLA, and Stanford are probably the next tier of programs you are applying to. I think you have a shot at all of them. UCSD and Yale are probably more like top 50 programs. Yale’s prestigious undergrad reputation does not correlate with the internal medicine program.
It seems you already have a particular research interest (oncology), so I would suggest broadening your search to look for programs that are strong in the area you have interest in (for example, Cornell is one of the top programs in the country for Heme/Onc). Good luck.
I just wrote a long reply to this that was deleted by SDN, so here’s the brief summary:
-The poster above is rather uninformed in regards to Ivy League pedigrees, competitiveness of the programs listed and (I’m biased) the strength of Yale’s medicine program.
-Issue 1 is where you’ll interview. I interviewed at all these places except UCSF (didn’t get an invite) and UCSD (didn’t apply). While interviewing, I met many students w/ MD/PhDs from across the country - many of whom were NOT from Ivy League institutions. Don’t be scared by claims to the contrary - they’re just that.
–Of the programs listed, MGH/BWH/UCSF/Hopkins generally form the top 4 and are terribly difficult interviews to get for anyone; MGH tends to interview more candidates than the other three, which may help you.
Duke/Penn/Columbia (not on your list) are generally regarded as just behind the big 4.
After that, the list broadens. Depending on who you speak to, there are probably 15-20 programs that are often cited in the “top 20” list on SDN. These include, in no specific order:
-BIDMC/Cornell (large, NE, and storied academic medical centers)
-Yale/Stanford/U. Chicago/Mt. Sinai (Smaller schools of medicine with major research engines and hospitals of varying size)
-WashU/Michigan/Mayo (the giants of the Midwest, both in bed #s and research capacity)
-UW/UCLA (the best programs in the West not named UCSF)
-Vanderbilt/UTSW (the Southern equivalents of Yale/Stanford and Michigan, respectively)
-Northwestern/Pittsburgh (the rapidly growing schools of the bunch)
(don’t flame me for forgetting a specific program! )
–Among the programs you’re looking at, though, Stanford + BIDMC tend to be very selective with interviews and Yale + UW conversely invites a ton.
Why: Stanford’s hospital is much smaller than Yale’s (therefore the intern class is smaller), and its location dominates (Palo Alto > New Haven, especially at first glance as an interviewee), necessitating that Yale interview more candidates in order to compensate for the New Haven effect. (Disclaimer: I’m Yale housestaff currently and enjoy it here, but even the most ardent New Haven booster can’t deny the fact that it hurts Yale in recruitment.) UW’s intern class, meanwhile, is just incredibly large - so they need to interview more people to get there. As for BIDMC, the Harvard name and Boston location enables the program to be choosy.
As an aside, UCLA will also be a harder interview to get, as the program is filled with AOA Cali natives hailing from med schools all over the country (think Drexel, NYMC, UVM, Rush, etc.) who want to return home to roost. UCSD seems to be an easier interview to snag.
–Beyond that, however, your prospects from these programs for a strong H/O match vary.
-UCSF - all doors open. Likely staying at UCSF, but they send people everywhere.
-BWH/MGH - almost certainly going to the Dana-Farber, but if you’re in the mood for NYC or Houston, then off to MSKCC or MD Anderson. Amazing H/O match lists.
-Yale - Over the past 5 years, have sent multiple grads to the Dana-Farber, MSKCC, MD Anderson, UCSF, Stanford and Yale; have sent assorted grads to UW (Fred Hutchinson), BIDMC, Hopkins, Fox Chase and the like.
-Stanford - Most people stay in house, likely by self-selection, but Stanford H/O isn’t as strong as its ex in the Bay Area (UCSF).
-UW - See above, but Fred Hutchinson is one of the best cancer centers in the country - who’d want to leave?
-UCSD - Most people appear to stay in house.
-UCLA - Ditto, but UCLA H/O is much stronger than UCSD and may be stronger than Stanford…depends on whom you ask.
Programs you should consider with incredible H/O match lists:
Cornell (seriously, a ridiculous list)
Penn/Columbia/Duke (all very, very, very strong match lists)
Michigan
Wash U
Vanderbilt
Temple U. (totally random, but really stellar list)
NYU
Mayo
So - that’s the long and short of it. Hope this helps, and good luck!
It is so confusing.
For H/O, Cornell is “better” than most other places at the fellowship level, according to the post:
"Programs you should consider with incredible H/O match lists:
Cornell (seriously, a ridiculous list)
Penn/Columbia/Duke (all very very very strong match list.)
"
There is sonething called Johns Hopkins as well as Johns Hopkins Bayview. The first one seems to be the main one, then? UCSF and UCLA have several locations as well. There are many Sinai (one of them with Icahn SOM designation - is this the main one?.) Columbia and Cornell in NYC seem to have the same hospital name (Presbyterian?) and NYU seems to have the similar name as well. There is also something called the PTSP program (Is this for the academic medicine track or the “primary care” track?)
Then, there is something that looks like this: someone who does not have the luck of receiving an II may need to call in at some right moment or use some online site to try to take the slot of an II which is just cancelled by someone else (at such an early date?), like it was implied in this part of the post: “now may be a good time to send them a note.”
I also read somewhere that for some programs, there are two separate IIs, one of them is for PC, but for most other programs, the PC option is just a checkmark on the same application form.)
“Keep in mind that this may vary depending on your fellowship interest.”
“I would add, and whoever has been invited from Yale can attest to this, that it looks like they may be done sending the majority of their invitations. One of their residents sent out an email to all invitees and the list contained about 450 students. (I thought it was odd that I could see all of the email recipients)
I could be wrong but I think that tends to be around the max # of people programs invite.
I only mention this because if you are really hoping for Yale, now may be a good time to send them a note.
Again, this is speculation. I have no evidence that they only interview ~450 people, and there will likely be some cancellations.
Best of luck.”
“Publications” for residency includes many things beyond peer reviewed research publications (eg abstracts at a conference). Id have to look at my CV to be sure but given the way residency apps count it I think I am already at 30+ whereas my true “publication” count is really more like 5.
Thanks.
I once heard DS had published some abstract at ASCO Annual Meeting (seemingly related to cancer) as the first author. I heard it is included in the publications issued at that annual meeting but he really did not have a chance to attend the meeting and presented in that conference.
Does it count for something or very little for this kind of publication? Not sure how useful it is for applying to residence programs. I guess the Cornell or JHU or Brown II could be related to this?
Clarification for the last sentence in post #874: The residency programs were just cited as three examples of university-based (rather than community) programs. That is, to get an II to a university based program like these, is some publication like this needed or not? I did not mean to say that the IIs to these 3 specific programs have been received.
Off topic - but just a thank you note - SDN is far more extensive in contents, but on the few occasions I’ve posted, identified as a parent, and not too deep a question, I’ve had my head bitten off, so I rarely go there.
I no longer actively track or influence DD’s career, but still like to be involved. It’s good to have a far more cordial environment here with some very knowledgeable posters who are willing to take the time to answer the questions some of us have.
Depends on the program. I can’t speak to any specific programs but as an MD/PhD student, we’ve been told that some will look in detail at what the publication record is (i.e. what journals you’re publishing in) while others will just see “publications” and move on.
@Dadof3, my take on SDN is that it is a place for stressed out pre-meds and medical students to release all their pent up anxiety, tension, frustration, etc. on anonymous internet strangers. Indeed it can be quite the resource as long as one is aware that that’s the environment and willing to deal with it.
Re: “Had my head bitten off (at SDN)”
LOL. Had been there not as a lurker once or twice, and had the same experience.
Another point: Some CCer (actually a med school student himself, I believe it was BDM) had this keen observation in the past:
Some parents here (like me) really try to pick up some knowledge in order to “calm down” themselves mostly rather than intervene and help their loved one directly. This is because their S/D may know more about the process than them. As such, after we have learned a little bit about this, we should be careful not to provide too much unsolicited advices to our loved one (because our “advices” may not be good due to our incomplete knowledge of the process.)
But still, being not totally ignorant about this process could help us facilitate the communication during the occasional call with our loved one (e.g., when he or she used some term, we would not be totally lost.) Also, we would appreciate how much efforts he or she has put into this on his/her journey.
As an example, about the questions on being an international student as an AMG (meaning that she is a student in US med school), this is just because some close friend of DS is one, and we are curious about it but not in a position to even provide any input or make any comment on it.
@iwannabe_Brown, Thanks again for your input.
(BTW, if you happen to be at Brown as MD/PhD there rather than as an UG there in the past, one of DS’s close friends during his gap year was/is there as an MD only student. Might have been just graduated this summer.)
Went to Brown for UG. Brown has no MSTP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Scientist_Training_Program), I’m at an MSTP school.
^^ I wonder why Brown has no MTSP. Do you know? @iwannabe_Brown