@artloversplus, what do mean by the success rate? You can only be accepted to one residency and you won’t know if you were accepted to others.
I mean how many IIs have to go before you get an residency offer. Perhaps it is not going to be known to the applicants, because the results have to go through a matching process.
OTOH, when I read “Million dollar Mistake” the blogger seems to know he was rejected by many. D went to a US school and she is not applying for Orthopedic, his situation does not apply. Nevertheless, still like to hear from you about your experiences on II vs matching
The person who wrote Million Dollar Mistake was a Caribbean grad so his situation doesn’t really pertain to USMD and USDO grads.
If you check the Charting The Outcomes of the Match, you’ll find a graph for each specialty which shows the likelihood of Matching vs number of contiguous ranks. (Contiguous ranks means that the individual has interviewed with a program and included it on their rank list.)
For DO grads applying to ACGME residencies in OB/GYN, see p. 141.
9 ranks gives one an 80% chance of matching. 12 ranks gives one a 90% chance of matching, 14 ranks gives one a >95% chance of matching.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-Osteo.pdf
The mean number of programs that successful DO applicants to OB/GYN ranked was 9.
(If your D has fewer than 9 IIs by mid- December, she needs to start think about her Plan B specialty–just in case she doesn’t match. Fewer than 9 interviews doesn’t mean she won’t match, but it means there’s a decent possibility she won’t.)
OB/GYN, for the last 3 years, has had all programs fill during regular match and there were no leftover spots for unmatched applicants to SOAP into.
If you know your ranking of the programs you interviewed at and you ranked 20 or 30 programs and you matched at 25th in your ranking, theoretically 24 of them didn’t rank you high enough to make the cut. If they have 4 positions and their top 4 also put the program as their top 1, the other 56 wont be considered at all.
NRMP video that explains how the Match algorithm works–
I do understand the matching algorithm and do understand the general stats about matching results. But it is just a “general” overall stats.
My question is about the likelihood of being matched in relationship to IIs. For example, I’d like to know YOUR(or S or D’s) experience in:
- How many IIs an applicant usually get? And how many IIs is a good indication of a successful residency applicant?
- How Many IIs needed to get a good match?
- Are scores (step 1, 2ck, shelf), LOI and ranking in med school the only criterias for PD to choose candidates?
- Is there a complete listing on Rankings of a certain specialty. I only found a list of "top 10" programs and they are more less start with Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, MGH etc. As you know those are just dream programs that not many can get in. So, is there a more comprehensive listing?
D applied to 100+ programs on 9/15 and now the IIs have been rolling in, since she is in a surgery rotation for a month, she cannot go to any IIs until November, will that reduce her chances?
Why so many???
@artloversplus has your daughter scheduled interviews at the places where she has gotten invites? My understating is that one needs to act on those invites when they are extended…and quickly…or sometimes…you can’t get an interview spot.
https://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-residency/article/apply-smart-data-consider/
This seems like good input on how many based on STEP1 score and specialty.
Anecdotally speaking, a friend was monitoring their kid’s IIs for a hard to get into specialty and accepting all interviews on the kid’s behalf because if not accepted, they would expire within an hour/few hours based on how many slots were there and how many jumped at them quick enough.
Many of the competing programs would deliberately have their interviews on the same date knowing that the students have to pick one or the other to attend. There were 50-60 people being interviewed for one or two positions available in the program.
So my friend said essentially it didn’t matter how many interviews came, the kid could theoretically attend only 40-50% because of the same date issues and would have been far fewer if the parent was not on standby to accept whatever came their way right away before all the slots were taken for the day.
There is a wide variation in the. number of IIs an applicant will recieve… It depends on the specialty, the strength of the candidate, the competitiveness of the programs the applicant applied to, etc.
Rule of thumb for number of IIs-- the number of IIs should be equal to or greater than the 90+% chance of matching for the specialty applied to in Charting the Outcomes. If an applicant has fewer than that, the risk of not matching at all goes up rapidly.
But again this is variable and depends on the overall strength of the applicant and the competitiveness of the specialty.
It doesn’t work that way,
A good match is ANY match.
More IIs does not mean you’re going to match at the most prestigious/best known program on your list. Or at your #1 choice. More IIs only means you’re more likely to match at any one of the programs on your rank list. You may rank 17 programs and end up at #17…
People are advised NOT to rank programs they’ve interviewed at but didn’t like–because there is a very good chance you’ll end up there.
D1 didn’t rank one of the programs she interviewed at but really didn’t like/didn’t feel was a good fit–this despite only having 7 other interviews. She decided she would rather risk going unmatched than spending 4 years at that particular program.
No, everything is looked at–STEP scores, LORs, type of degree (MD, DO, IMG, FMG), MSPEs, personal statements, relevant ECs, awards, leadership positions, research/publications/presentations, diversity/UIM status, whether or not the applicants done an away at the program or at a program familiar to the PD, prior professional or personal contacts with faculty members, or current/past resident, professional memberships, has this program ever accepted any students from this particular school before, applicant’s ties to the geographic area, applicant experience with the typical patient population of the program, etc.
PD and APDs can set filters when they download applications: Step scores above XXX, no IMG, no DO, no FMG, no YoG before 20XX, AOA status–yes, etc. Once the program has downloaded the files, the PD and APD read everything in every file, then they make a prioritized list of who to invite. After the first round of interviews get sent out and the PD/APD sees who responds, they’ll send out a second round-possibly to some highly desirable applicants who couldn’t get a slot the first time, but also to some other candidates that are strong, just not as strong/desirable as the first round.
But just because one interviews later in the cycle doesn’t mean that an candidate isn’t going to get ranked high by the program. The interview will determine that.
No. And any rankings may not be meaningful or useful. Criteria for “best” program are all over the place. Ask 10 different people what the top program in XXX specialty is and you’ll get 11 different answers.
(In OB/GYN, UNC, and Alabama have top ranked OB/GYN residencies–better regarded in many ways than, say, Stanford or Pritzker.)
Your D needs to decide what’s important to HER to have in a program and go from there. Ryan program? Academic program vs.community program? Reputation (or lack thereof) for being malignant? Diverse patient population with exposure to minority healthcare issues? Diverse faculty? More surgery exposure/less well woman clinic? Percentage of faculty that is board certified in specialty? Percentage of residents who pass specialty boards within 3 years of graduation? Research output per faculty member? Research opportunities for resident? Amount of exposure to subspecialties during residency? Percentage of residents who match into fellowship? Benefits & salary package? Location? Compatibility with current residents & faculty?
It’s s very individual decision and depends on what priorities your D has for her future career.
However, in the end, none of the above really matters because each applicant only gets offered one match placement. No do-overs, no second chances. The match is binding. If you refuse your placement, kiss your medical career good-bye.
Possibly because the programs will have already interviewed other candidates by then and she’ll be judged how she stacks up against the candidates they’ve already interviewed. But a later in the season interview doesn’t mean she won’t be ranked well by a program. It depends on how well she fits in with the program.
@CottonTales because she is a DO, she is at disadvantage, thus require apply broaderly.
@thumper1 yes, she is trying to schedule the interview. DW also got involved as a backup. She gave DW her schedule so DW can answer the II’s email on time.
@texaspg We shall see, the IIs are just started to come in yesterday.
@WayOutWestMom
What do you mean:
“Rule of thumb for number of IIs-- the number of IIs should be equal to or greater than the 90+% chance of matching for the specialty applied to in Charting the Outcomes. If an applicant has fewer than that, the risk of not matching at all goes up rapidly.”
How do you determine 90+% chance of matching in Charting the Outcomes?
She is not at a disadvantage ONLY because she is a DO.
This is what I’ve learned…
- DO students need to have DO friendly residencies on their application list. There are clearly programs that have NEVER taken a DO student as a resident.
- She might be at a disadvantage if her STEP test scores are not in the tippy top....especially her USMLE scores (assuming your daughter took both tests). But then...if your DO kiddo is applying to tippy top programs without tippy top scores, LOR, and other positives that add to her application, it won’t necessarily be that she is a DO grad that will put her at a disadvantage.
- More is not necessarily better. I suspect there is a reason why residency application costs increase after a certain number of applications. For any over 30, isn’t it something like $180 per application? For 100 applications, the costs would be in the $15000 range...and that doesn’t include any last minute travel arrangements (yes, she will be making plane reservations the week of some of those interviews), hotels, clothing to wear, etc.
I read the article posted above by @texaspg . Some research has been done, and there is clearly a bit of diminishing returns after a certain number of applications. So…more is not necessarily better.
And now my opinion…students applying to residencies need to be at least somewhat realistic about their actual chances of matching. They will only be able to actually interview at a reasonable number of places, and they will only want to rank a reasonable number of places.
So…are 100 applications necessary…maybe…maybe not.
There are a LOT of wonderful residency programs at places that your family and friends won’t recognize. That doesn’t mean your resident won’t get a fabulous experience. I have heard from some folks that the residency experiences at community hospitals can be very very good…and broad, for example.
I just can’t imagine wading through 100 applications, and potential interviews.
At some point, a bunch of those applications or programs will need to drop off her list.
Go to 141 in Charting the Outcomes for US Osteopathic Seniors (linked above)
There’s a graph of number of interviews vs probability of matching. Follow the curve until you reach the .90 probability.
IIRC, it’s 11 or 12 interviews.
Your D is at a disadvantage as a DO applicant to some programs, particularly for academic (university) programs. These tend to prefer MD applicants and interview few or no DOs. If there are no DOs on faculty and no DOs in the residency program, your D is unlikely to get an interview there--unless there is something truly exceptional about her application. Applying to Stanford and UCSF was a waste of her application $$. Applying to Stanford and UCSF is waste of application $$ for most MD applicants too.
The West is a very difficult place to match to for both MD and DO candidates. There are not enough residency programs relative to the number of med school grads those states produce.
I agree with thumper–a shotgun approach to applying to residency is counter-productive (and expensive). There has been a massive explosion in the number of applications and it has really bogged down the system. There’s been a lot of talk of about limiting the number of applications a candidate can submit to 25. With a well targeted list, most candidates without any major “issues” will have sufficient interviews to match. (Issues like failed exams, failed classes, failed NMBEs, behavior or professionalism flags, visa problems).
Because of this huge increase in applications in the last 5-6 years, PDs are reading fewer & fewer applications and applying more & more conditions when choosing which files to read. I know at D1’s program, that unless a student has done an away there or has some sort of other personal/professional connection with the university hospital, the program simply will not consider a candidate’s application. The PD said he used to get a few hundred applications for 12 slots; now he get 3000+ for those same 12 slots.
Oops. My calculations of application cost was way too high…but still the cost of applying to 100 programs is not a bargain
Thanks for all of your advise. We will rank University residencies higher. The shot gun approach is unfortunate and that is the main reason DO is less desirable.
What’s done is done, I can do nothing at this point.
There are some community programs that are better regarded than some academic programs so ranking academic interview higher as the default isn’t automatically a good idea.
And the ranking university programs higher only works if you D has interviewed there and she is a “good fit”.
Residency interviews are a lot like going through sorority/fraternity rush. Because all or almost all residency interviewees have the minimal competency necessary to be successful, it becomes a matter of “fit” and compatibility in how a program ranks an applicant. Remember your D’s rank list is only one-half of the equation. The program has to rank her back.
I think all applicants have the wisdom to find their “fit”, the parents can do nothing about it.
Please stop dissing DO programs…especially since your DD is a DO student…but mostly because at the end of the day…DO grads are also doctors.
The shot gun approach is not one taken by all DO students, and frankly will not make a difference at the end of the day.
Making wise and informed choices about residency applications is way more important for any applicant than simply applying to more…and more…and more programs. My opinion.
Ranking happens only after finishing interviews. So it truly should not matter where someone applied, only where they got interviews.
Just trying to clear up where ranking happens (only after finishing interviews) and not to be confused with actual ranking of the programs in the specialty.
Yes she is. It is many times less of a disadvantage than a foreign MD, but it is still a disadvantage none the less.