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<p>I’m not sure how ‘pragmatic’ it is to force a kid to go to any college, since academic success requires mustering energy, enthusiasm, etc. Being forced to do things often results in resentfulness and willful failure.</p>
<p>Like I said, I was oversimplifying to make a point. But someone always nitpicks the wording and misses the point.</p>
<p>For the higher education, acceptance and recognition by others is everything. Your perception of “acceptance and recognition by others” dictates your base of measurement for prestige. And you judge the level of elitism by others. Then, your financial sense and condition play the role of final selections. </p>
<p>For the people who believes that a flagship state college is well acceptable level, any colleges generally ranked above own in-state flagship school are good schools. They understand some values of top schools, however, have difficult time to accept differences on top schools over in-state flagship. Believe all those schools including in-state flagship should be well accepted and recognized by others; thus should not have much difference. However, lots of the same people can not send their kids to the second or third tire state colleges. This may not be a elitism on cc standard because accepting state colleges, but this is a elite school seeking behavior seen by some other people. It’s just a different level. We all are based on the same elitism. If the costs by all schools are the same, you want to send your kid to a better known school, the best in rankings. If the point of exercise is having knowledge with least cost, most goes to a community college for their first two years. </p>
<p>People has various level of financial sense; but majority has a good one. Few can not plan in a longer term or make a strange decision. It should be the minority, otherwise not on news. It is like people who took bigger mortgage payment than their paychecks. Then everybody has a different comfortability to pay extra $10,000. </p>
<p>UChicago has been the dream school for the son of one of my friends. He was accepted by it and one (maybe two) of HYP. Both schools are beyond my friend’s acceptable level of recognition by others. He does not see any substantial benefit on either. However, the cost after FA of UChicago is over $20,000 ($25K if a loan considered as non-FA) than a HYP. He said he just can not afford extra $20K every year. He understands some has said he is a prestige seeker behind his back. (Well, he said he is happy to put up the title in his front yard if somebody pays the rest of the cost!) </p>
<p>A son of another family was accepted by Boston, Goergetown and in-state flagship. Their decision is for the in-state flagship due to their financial, again. However, they have been still discussing their decision. For the father, in-state flagship is marginally acceptable and he wants to do better for his son. His financial sense stopped other choice, for now. </p>
<p>And another was accepted by the in-state flagship and few second tier in-state schools. For this family, the second tiers were just safety schools. Their daughter is heading to the in-state flagship with maximum loans they can have. They talk the second tiers like loser schools. </p>
<p>I understand that Suzuki-san wants to have some kind of standard way of measurement to justify extra level of acceptance for monetary term. It is not easy to establish a base line of minimum recognition level, even it is just for you. It is easy decision if you can easily pay the extra or can not absolutely pay the extra. Now you want to have a some kind of agreement in case of less than comfortable financial level to justify going to another school. You know you don’t get any consensus on cc.</p>
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kayf, while I agree with your post, I was trying to make a slightly different point. The list of schools chosen as top recruiting destinations by major engineering and tech firms includes lots of “no-name” schools because these relatively low-ranked schools often have top-notch departments in engineering, science and tech fields. The average person has no idea why, for example, Waterloo (in Canada) is heavily recruited by Microsoft. But the top firms know very well which are the strongest schools in their field, and the Ivy League schools are not always on the list.</p>
<p>Parents who assume that Ivy is always worth the money due to prestige may not be aware that in certain fields, the list of prestige schools is vastly different than the top ten in U.S. News.</p>
<p>My post was excessively vague about “top schools” due to privacy concerns…sorry about that. The point I was trying to make is that a lot of this discussion is about the choices made by families whose income precludes or limits financial aid.</p>
<p>For families with lower incomes (and an income of $300,000+ is very high for some families to even think about), private colleges may be a better deal than public. We have found it is harder to get financial aid at public universities or colleges than at private ones, although merit aid is more available through state programs.</p>
<p>A pet peeve of mine with our guidance counselor- and this is in a primarily working class town with most families needing aid - was that he guided everyone toward community colleges, or state colleges, or for the brightest, state universities, when many of the talented kids could have gone to private schools for less money. Some of the more elite colleges are trying to recruit kids from less wealthy backgrounds, but the inertia of guidance counselors like ours is a counterforce, for sure.</p>
<p>That said, I am a fan of our state U. system, and many kids have thrived there. I am trying to get a degree there myself in my late 50’s. I would say, for a young person, that it is wonderful to meet others from around the country and world, and that happens a little more at private schools, but state universities also provide that opportunity.</p>
<p>Financial aid causes a lot of resentment among certain groups. That is natural, but at the same time, aid really does make it possible for many young people to attend the colleges they want to go to, and some of those would not be able to afford public university, only a private with generous aid.</p>
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<p>I sometimes forget this!</p>
<p>I think it’s important to consider what the purpose of the degree is. Are you going to build a network that will help you get a job or are you thinking the degree will look good on a resume. If you just want something that will look good on your resume, I don’t think the big price tag is worth it. Most employers really don’t care that much. However, the connections you could make at some of these schools are worth their weight in gold.</p>
<p>Ann, I agree that research of colleges limited to US News top 10 is inadequate. </p>
<p>Comp – I agree with you that the kids who need great GCs may not get the help. It is heartbreaking. Where my X went to HS (a long time ago, but a school with a lot of underpriviledge kids), they tried to sell many kids on sports as there way out. The BB coach said all kids got scholarships. I said to X, so what – you went to commuter public U and got much better education.</p>
<p>^^ compmom,</p>
<p>I agree with much of what you say, but I’d caution against making sweeping generalizations about what “public universities” are like on the basis of your experience with your own state’s public university system. This varies tremendously from state to state, both with respect to educational quality, financial aid, and national and international representation in the student body.</p>
<p>For that matter, the same is true at private colleges. Truth be told, it’s only a tiny fraction of private colleges and universities that are both fully need-blind in admissions and meet 100% of financial need. And even among those promising to meet 100% of need, you can probably count on one hand the number that meet all need with gift aid; most bundle a heavy dose of work-study and loans into the package. But work-study and loans are essentially forms of self-help: it’s part of what YOU pay, not part of what the school pays.</p>
<p>So I think the oft-repeated refrain on CC that “private schools give better financial aid” needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. It’s sometimes true, but not always. It depends on the particular schools, the particular financial circumstances of the student’s family, the particular student, and most importantly the particulars of the FA package—which you just won’t know until you apply and get the offer.</p>
<p>maximus001,
Yes, I agree as I pointed out many times, there are numerous opportunities for star students at State schools that are only open to top students. And they are better off there instead of being another face in a crowd at elite school. D has found out this additional benefit that did not even play in her decision to go to state.</p>
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<p>I second this and have experienced it first-hand. I would have been below average at bestprobably way below averageat an elite school as an undergraduate. But at my mid-sized state university I was one of the best, got lots of individual attention from my professors, special projects, etc. It prepared me well for the next level. At a top-ten school I would have simply drowned.</p>
<p>I had this same dilemma. Choosing between an elite universtiy (Duke and Rice) or going to a full ride at a state school (Texas A&M or Alabama). One of the hardest decisions of my life was choosing to attending UA, giving up my dream school of Duke. Everyone wonders why i did it, and since most of my private school friends are rich, they dont understand that 14K a year in loans, plus an EFC that completely ignores my parents actual situation was too much for me to handle. Everyday i wonder if i made the right choice. I stay up late at night and wonder if i did the right thing. I have wanted to go to duke since i was in junior high, i loved everything about it. I guess come fall i’ll see if i did the right thing.</p>
<p>One thing we are not looking at is that very elite schools can be pressure cookers. Some students do better with a string of A’s and the confidence to approach grad school than with the B+'s and B’s they may earn at a more challenging school.</p>
<p>It is impossible to predict the life path of someone else, even our own child. We can try, but we may not succeed.</p>
<p>For very complicated reasons I ended up at a an instate school for undergrad. Didn’t hurt me; I was accepted into an Ivy grad school. I chose not to go for complicated reasons, and that has hurt my career. I really didn’t have a choice at the time so I am not looking back too much, I hope.</p>
<p>One of my daughter’s is working for a masters student at Yale. He went to UConn on a great scholarship and turned down the Ivie’s which would have been much more expensive. He said that way, he had money for grad school. He found the honors program at UConn challenging in the sciences and told her he never regretted it. Many people (like us) fall into that hole where they are too rich for great need-based aid but not rich enough to pay for college beyond a minimal amount. This student’s advice was also repeated by another student who went to a mid-west public and then Yale. He said when students say, “It’s worth it” they don’t realize the reality many times in paying it back. They say it doesn’t matter, they will handle it, but 4 years goes by very quickly and even faster the 6 month grace period before the loans kick in. Even if they get a great paying job, the monthly payments will be very real and resentment sometimes sets in.
I heard a woman say today her niece, who is graduating this year from Univ. of New Haven has 88,000 in loans…for a BA degree!! I don’t know how that happened, but just like when young adults keep swiping their credit cards for those name-brand clothes and then are shocked by the bill, it happens with college too.</p>
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<p>Gee, I wasn’t trying to be nitpicky; sorry if it came off that way.</p>
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<p>I understand. But you did react to the word “force” rather than to the point I was making.</p>
<p>(The comments below are general and not about you, midmo.)</p>
<p>It gets tiresome to write an entire paragraph trying to get across a general concept, only to have someone latch onto a single word and extrapolate all kinds of ludicrous conclusions from it. This happens on CC all the time.</p>
<p>Hypothetical Example Post</p>
<p>My son spends too much time hanging out with his friends. His grades are starting to slip, and now he might not get into his prestigious dream college. Should I gently suggest that he study harder? Or should I just tell him to shape up before I kick his butt?</p>
<p>Typical CC Reply #1</p>
<p>No wonder he is having so much trouble in school, with a father who thinks it’s acceptable to physically abuse his son.</p>
<p>Typical CC Reply #2</p>
<p>Kicking someone in the butt is not something to joke about. I have a nephew who was crippled for life when he broke his coccyx bone. You should be more sensitive to the handicapable.</p>
<p>Typical CC Reply #3</p>
<p>Why are you so hung up on prestige? My husband went to Podunk Tech and now owns his own business. You shouldn’t be so elitist.</p>
<p>God, it gets old.</p>
<p>LOL!! Just 473 posts and you’ve figured out the drill pretty well. You left out the other CC reply#4: You should both get counseling.</p>
<p>haha, then usually the discussion degenerates into something meaningless,</p>
<p>Compmom
I’m somewhat amazed at the statement that private schools generally offer better financial aid then do publics, especially for those with incomes below 180k. Frankly, this was not the case with my son. He was accepted into Cornell, Duke, UVA, and a few other top state schools. At the end of the day, he received zippy from Duke, Cornell, UVA, and the other top state schools. My household income is 130k a year, and all that got him was 5500 in stafford loans. SO, at the end of the day, he chose UVA (20K) vs 40-50k at Duke/Cornell (and I’m dang happy he did!). If anything, unless your kid is a top athlete or noted scholar, upper middle class families these days have been getting the back of the hand from so-called elite private schools. IMO, the only thing elite about them is the price.</p>
<p>Post of the Day- #136.</p>