<p>mantori:
Based on your previous posts, I detect a pattern of mental and physical abuse directed at your children. Please get help before it’s too late.<br>
(Just kidding!</p>
<p>LOL, mantori suzuki!</p>
<p>Here’s a link to more ‘typical’ C.C. posts:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/501191-meta-thread-save-us-all-time.html?highlight=meta-thread[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/501191-meta-thread-save-us-all-time.html?highlight=meta-thread</a></p>
<p>mantori suzuki and post #136… my new CC hero.</p>
<p>I am a first child from an upper-middle class family and I have to say that this debate really strikes a chord, seeing as my parents don’t know how we’re going to pay either. I have two younger sisters as well, but because of the recession we essentially lost at least half of our savings, even though our income is substantial. So we basically don’t qualify for too much aid, but with three kids if I had to pay full price at an elite institution it would basically bankrupt my sisters’ college funds. It’s a bit of a bind.</p>
<p>That being said, my parents have supported my looking at whatever colleges I’d like. I’m going to be applying to some of the more pricey LACs and Universities (although getting in is another thing…), but I had to make sure that there are state schools on that list as well - not only the local state U, but plenty of others that are also good schools.</p>
<p>The thing is, I can actually completely empathize with patc’s post. I visited the state university as well, and although I’m sure the classes are well-taught and informative - I only went to one - the student attitude wasn’t great. I’ve spent 12 years in my town being known as “the smart girl;” it’d be nice to go somewhere where I can relate better to the students.</p>
<p>But on the other hand, I can’t bankrupt my two sisters. So basically it’s a bind that I’m hoping to solve by applying for as many local scholarships as possible. I’ve worked for two years; we don’t have a third cara; I don’t go shopping. But it isn’t that much of a sacrifice if I can go to the place I want to go.</p>
<p>You may also try applying for Us that are known for good merit aid for stats similar to yours (hopefully our HS college counselor can help suggest some). There are some threads on Us known for good merit aid. Basically, if you’re near the top of their applicant pool, you’re more likely to get merit offers to attend schools.</p>
<p>My parents gave me a choice: they pay for my prestigious undergraduate school, or they pay for my prestigious graduate school.</p>
<p>I chose the latter of the two… huzzah for full rides!</p>
<p>I just want to clarify a point that got lost a bit a few pages back… on the difference between undergrad and grad. I cringe a little when I see posts like “Ivy grad school”. That is a construct which really doesn’t exist in the job market for post-grad school. Although posters here love to say that they’re saving their money to help their kids go to grad school by doing a cheap (or cheaper or free) undergrad- in my opinion, that’s a false economy.</p>
<p>Unless there are compelling personal or professional reasons, my 25 + years as a corporate recruiter suggest that a person should go to the top grad program in their field to which they can get admitted unless they get a much better financial package at a close substitute. Full stop. To aspire to “ivy grad school” is insane. Many ivy programs are mid-ranked, some are mediocre, some are absolutely world class. Northwestern’s Business School consistently ranks above Yale’s School of Management on virtually every meaningful list of MBA quality. Unless a kid needed to be near their dialysis center in New Haven, I can’t imagine turning down Kellogg for Yale for an MBA just because Yale is “ivy”. That’s a distinction which is meaningless in the corporate world. Cornell’s law school is down around number 13 or so in the law school rankings; Stanford is usually one or two. So unless a kid gets a lot of money from Cornell (which is possible if the kid is good enough to get admitted to Stanford), I’d recommend Stanford. Go ahead and ignore my advice- it’s a free country, but the fact that Cornell is an Ivy has zero (I’ll repeat that, zero) bearing on its status in the legal community. It is a tier one law school, but it isn’t Stanford. (which is not an Ivy.) So the parents who want their kid to go to basket-weaver undergrad with a free ride to save their dough for “ivy grad school”-- I think that’s a misconception.</p>
<p>The diffferences are even more stark in academic disciplines at the PhD level- Berkeley is a powerhouse in math; UIUC has a phenomenal program in Comp Sci; I’ll shut up now because you get my point.</p>
<p>The choice is a less obvious one for undergrad for four reasons in my opinion.</p>
<p>1- kids go to undergrad at 18 or thereabouts and so their academic interests are likely to change (several times, if the surveys are reliable.) So to pick UT Austin for their phenomenal accounting program only to have the kid decide after two accounting classes that he’d rather die than be a CPA- well, there are lots of reasons to go to UT, but I wouldn’t counsel a kid to choose a school based on one major.</p>
<p>2- Some kids are ready to live anywhere; others need to be closer to family, or a reliable airport, or public transportation, which is a valid limiting factor on why every kid shouldn’t pick the most prestigious school to which they are admitted.</p>
<p>3- Parents pay for undergrad. There are lots of reasons why money is a valid limiting factor for undergrad. I feel it is less so for grad school- kid comes out able to make a living in his/her chosen field. I don’t think lots of grad school debt makes sense in many of the helping professions, but the “rankings” are generally meaningless there. My local hospital (well known teaching institution) hires OT’s and PT’s and social workers and speech therapists with very little regard for the name on the diploma. My local school system prefers teachers from our local State U (not the flagship) since most of them have done teaching rotations, or shadowing, or on-site programs in the system already during their training.</p>
<p>4- Some kids need a “not ready for prime time” experience for undergrad in order to be fully launched. But I’d say that a kid who needs a “not ready for prime time” grad program needs to re-think their professional aspirations. Neighbor of mine has a kid who is going to a third tier law school, allegedly because she needs to be in a school that’s not “quite so cut-throat” before she ends up at a Top Tier NY law firm (her mom’s words). Which I love. First of all, try getting hired at these law firms which only recruit at the top 14, with Fordham and Brooklyn thrown in as local favorites. Second, when does little precious find out how cut-throat her colleagues can be at said Top Tier law firm. After she makes partner or before they tell her that since she’s only billing 90 hours a week she’s getting downsized?</p>
<p>Rant over. Just don’t confuse the prestige issue for undergrad (where there can be legitimate reasons for choosing less vs. more) with those for grad. And do not think that corporate recruiters don’t know the difference. We watch the rankings carefully. It costs big bucks to be flying teams around the country, and then paying to fly students in to us, and then house-hunting trips and what-not. Occasionally a school can stay on the list for a year or two after we have a disappointing season there… but not much longer than that. If the quality of the students start to slip- we are out of there.</p>
<p>blossom, thank you for that thought-provoking and eye-opening post.</p>
<p>Excellent post, Blossom. I cringe when high school juniors are “sure” they want to major in business (or whatever) and choose their undergrad school accordingly. I forget what the percentage is of undergrads who change majors, but it is absolutely huge. It’s important to look at the flexibility offered by the school in the event the kid bails from accounting (to use Blossom’s example) and wants to major in African studies. My daughter was somewhat incensed that I wasn’t keen on her going to a conservatory to study voice, even though she was admitted to some. I wanted her to have more options. She felt that I didn’t think she could “make it”. Well, she wound up at a conservatory level music program within a university (Rice) which wound up being perfect. She loved her music studies and excelled, but is grateful that she had the top academics and great choice of other classes. She is now in a MDiv program heading for the priesthood. You just never know.</p>
<p>As a parent who let S1 turn down a full ride offer from a OOS school with top tier program in his chosen field so that he can attend U Chicago (economics), this is my position now</p>
<p>(1) If S1 wants to go to elite MBA school, he is paying for that degree. Prestigious MBA programs want their candidates to have 4+ years of work experience before they start the MBA program anyway. He is a Wall Street hopeful, and we are paying top dollars for the undergrad education that is very well respected in the world of high finance. He is a highly gifted young man with a burning ambition for his chosen field with a discipline to match (read almost all the books at Barnes & Noble plus more from the university libraries in the field of economics and finance during last two years at HS and now on a 12 hour a day schedule commuting to an internship position to NYC from NJ this summer right after HS graduation). If he keeps this up, he can either make enough money to pay for his own grad education or have the company pay for it. Mine paid for my MBA at Wharton while they also paid me the full time salary at work. </p>
<p>(2) S2 is very much likely to go to college on an ROTC scholarship that pays tuition, fees, and $300-500 a months for stipend. If he wants to pursue a graduate degree program after he serves mandatory term post graduation and before he starts his civilian career, we will pay for his graduate degree. If he does not want to go to a graduate school, we will some how have equivalent financial resources available for him for down payment for his home, etc. For S2, I would recommend he go to college that his ROTC scholarship money is provided for, even if that schools is “ranked” below other schools he may be accepted to but without a scholarship. Given he will be entering a civilian work force at the minimum 4-6 years post undergrad with a solid career built in the military, the “potency” of the undergraduate college name value will be much less so than would be the case for kids entering the job market just based on the undergrad education and experience - when I was hiring folks in the high tech field, for those candidates who were already working professionals, I was much more interested in what they had done last few years at another company than where they went to school 10 years ago. Besides, given that ROTC chews up up to 20 hours a week, I would rather see him not completely overwhelmed with hyper competitive academic scene. S2 is a natural born leader, a man’s man, and his gift is different from his older brother’s who can ace all the exams by simply sniffing the air in the lecture hall.</p>
<p>I want both of my sons to have the best opportunity possible that can augment the natural gift they are born with. For S1, it’s the most intellectually challenging undergrad experience. For S2, it’s the optimal balance of the school’s academic strength, outstanding ROTC unit, scholarship, and internship opportunities in the policy related field (he is really eying for DC schools)</p>
<p>Different patients - difference diagnostics and treatment courses!</p>
<p>if someone goes ROTC (like I did and did 4 years active servive payback), go to the best possible school, make sure you get a degreee that you can get a job in when you get out (business or in my case engineering)…this is more important than the military experience…in finding a good job</p>
<p>S2 is likely go to a grad school post military service prior to entering civilian work force. He is interested in public sector career (foreign services, politics, etc). Meanwhile, when I went for the company sponsored MBA education, I had a couple of classmates from armed forces who were there on our tax money. (one of them was an Air Force captain, and the other one was in Navy, I think). Given that it’s a program that cost about $130K, the US government invested big time on these individuals. By the way, military paid their salary during this period also. Granted that incurs obligations for extended service at the military, but that’s an amazing perk. I believe there are similar programs for the military to pay for the law degree. Not sure about the medical degree.</p>
<p>My sentiment is, one way or the other, graduate educations can be had at somebody else’s dime if you are good AND in certain field. Ph.D. programs mostly give tuition and monthly stipend - some 20+ years ago, I went to a grad school free: with my research/teaching assistance position, they wavered tuition and then paid me about $800 a month - that was more than enough to live on then. So, all the advanced degree education through two separate bouts cost me $0. MBA education can be sponsored by the company if you are considered a high runner. The Law school may be an exception. Medical school - definitely the student pays.</p>
<p>So, depending on the kind of post graduate career and nature/field of the future graduate school education, it may make more sense to invest in the quality undergraduate education in some circumstances, rather than for the future graduate school.</p>
<p>Great post blossom and some great points</p>
<p>The key is to find out what schools excel in your field and that is not often easy for the average person to find. An elite university name on the diploma does not mean a top education in all fields.</p>
<p>I personally think this is why many public engineering colleges are so weed out based and cut out lower GPA’s after the sophomore years. They need to keep the quality of student high to keep the recruiting process going well and the companies coming in. </p>
<p>I also believe, like education, a lot of recruiting in engineering is regional in nature and built on relationships with colleges in the area if possible. Although instead of student teaching you have relationships built with internships. In this set up where you want to live can drive where you go to school not prestige.</p>
<p>If D gets into an Ivy League school or one of the top tech schools, we will try our best to pay for it. Otherwise, we are hoping she will attend the honors college of our flagship U or any of the state schools around us. What I most certainly will not pay for is some overpriced, mediocre private university with an Ivy League pricetag (unless she receives a large scholarship).</p>
<p>My parents sold their beloved, modest home to send me to an overpriced, barely Tier 1 private university in the northeast. I hated the college so much, but I was terrified to tell my parents after all they had sacrificed for me. Academically, the classes were no tougher than the classes I’d taken at my local community college the summer before my freshman year. Socially, I made exactly one friend in the entire three years I was there. I graduated early because I could not deal with the obnoxious, spoiled students anymore.</p>
<p>I want my D to have a good college experience, but I’m not about to mortgage our home to send her to an overpriced private college ranked lower than OUR STATE SCHOOL.</p>
<p>People should not forget that the very top schools are REALLY good options for the vast majority of people. Assuming that one is good enough to get into a top school the financial aid there is absolutely without a doubt unbelievable. I was accepted to Yale university and had a EFC of 4K, which is less than the 7K I would have to pay at my state school after scholarships (and my parents have about 120K in income and three other children). And the opportunities afforded at some schools are so immense that I think people should just apply.</p>
<p>I mean I was only planning to apply to my in state school only before a teacher encouraged me to aim higher, so people should definitely still consider elite schools.</p>
<p>hyeonijlee,</p>
<p>Yes, I agree very much with your insight on financing graduate school; many people ask us how we can be sending our child full freight to his expensive school when medical school or law school or a PhD will be so expensive. There are, in fact, many ways to finance that phase of the education beyond paying full freight. DH got his PhD without paying a cent of tuition and working a research position that put a roof over our heads the entire time. My masters degree was also virtually “free” because I worked as a TA throughout. Even medical school can be largely paid for if the student is strong enough to land in an MD/PhD program. Law is probably the most difficult one to get financed but we have heard of a few kids who have gone to work for companies following their undergraduate program, distinguished themselves in the workplace and persuaded their employers to pay their law school or business school costs and provide them with summer employment. </p>
<p>The graduate school phase is very different than the undergraduate phase in terms of economics. We thought through this end of it before taking on the full-freight costs for our child.</p>
<p>I know nobody wants to think about this, but where do the bottom kids at the top schools end up? What are their prospects for grad school, and employment?
Knowing they all went in with excellent stats, are they better off than if they had taken the full ride at State U and had the extra attention and opportunities offered to the honors kids? Which is better if the kid will graduate in the bottom 1/4 at the Ivy? And how do you know before sending the check?</p>
<p>hyeonjlee, your posts on predicting your son’s miliatray career concern me. hopefuly your or your husband were in the military, because it is very hard to predict how successful a person will be as a young 2ndLt. The MBA program’s you mentioned, where the military sends captains or majors to, such as harvard and tulane (the two casees I know of) is extremely competitive, and they only try to send the top rated 5% officers that want the military as a career (so if a person had 4 years as ROTC obligation, then 2 years getting an MBA, then a payback,as I remember it, of another 4 years of service …so the person has 10 years in before he can get out. Also, no young person should go into the military as an officer unless they really want to serve, not just to get an education paid for or their ticket punched for grad school.</p>
<p>
We actually asked that before sending DS to his private U (ranked top-20). Prof from his department responded to our question quickly by email; said that all kids who graduated with that degree from his dept that year had either rec’d jobs in the field or were heading on to law/grad/med school. The Prof had also taught at big state school, and said there was no downside to going to this private U. and a lot of upside in terms of support, collaboration, mentoring, and opportunities for research, etc. My take on this is that, unlike big public school who HAVE to weed out the engineering or hard science kids due to lack of facility/faculty space in the upper years, there isn’t this problem at the well-heeled privates - plus there are enough caring concerned faculty (who are somewhat less stretched-thin - due to lower teaching loads, smaller class size, etc.) to help mentor work with kids who need extra help; plus, the kids are pre-screened - already academically successful and know how to put forth the required effort. Also, schools don’t have to grade to a curve - and aren’t trying to flunk kids out. We have found the private U to be a wonderfully supportive place, and DS has already benefited from the opportunities there.</p>