@LG_Dent @rickle1
DS21 is thinking about applying to Wake, so I just want to thank you for posting your thoughts - it really helps us determine the best fit (especially when it is impossible to visit!), which is good for the kids and good for Wake Forest, too.
@RockySoil , @LG_Dent did a nice job describing her Wake experience. I’m only a parent so every opinion I have is based on observation of S and his situation (anecdotal at best).
However, the topic of grade deflation pops up from time to time, and then of course, “Work Forest”. Based on S’ experience, I would agree the courses are rigorous across the board. No easy A’s. He was a straight A kid in HS (top rated school in our area) and bounces around 3.5 at Wake. He would tell you it’s all manageable with good time management skills. A big part of that is ECs which take up a lot of time but provide excellent experiences outside the classroom. His primary group of friends are all involved in several clubs and I think that’s fairly common They’re pretty busy.
Based on conversations we’ve had, I would describe grading as tough but fare. They want you really learning coursework and that takes a deep mastery of the topic. I’d like to think it’s like that at most places but I here that’s not necessarily the case.
@LG_Dent Do tailgating and attending football/soccer/basketball etc games play a big role in social life for many students? I envision Wake having big attendance at these events, along the lines of BC and ND. But without having visited yet, it’s hard to get a feel for this.
Btw, thx for creating this post. It is really helpful!!
I apologize for taking a while to respond to all these comments! I may have a biased view as a pre-dental student when I say that often times classes were not collaborative and many students preferred to “beat the curve” rather than help one another. However, the classes I took in the social sciences and in the writing department were not cut-throat and I found students often supported each other’s successes more. It’s sad to think that your major and interests may define your learning experience at Wake Forest but that is the unfortunate truth. This is true for my friends at other “competitive” universities as well (talked about this with a friend at BC and Emory).
I had a good friend apply for B school and did not get in. I don’t usually like to pry about grades but from the two or three classes we shared, she seemed like a good student. She decided to instead major in Econ and East Asian Studies and got a great internship internationally! Her main struggle was accounting and that is what I’ve heard from many students applying to the B school. Although I was not a part of the B school, I would recommend she prepare for accounting as best she can, consider meeting with her professor often, and really buckle down the year she decides to take that course in order to get in!
It most definitely does! Actually had a friend get into both BC and Wake and opted to go to BC. When he visited both places, he said the tailgating atmosphere was more prominent at Wake during his visit (I’ve never been to BC so I couldn’t confirm that statement, but I’d say he’s got a valid opinion). Wouldn’t be able to compare it to ND though.
I, myself, only went to 1 or 2 tailgates and I felt like I wasn’t left out or out of place for not attending more (I’m a bit more of an introvert). Whenever we’d win, I would often just walk out of my dorm to the quad and see all the students teepeeing the trees, it’s really a cool sight to see. Other students are true Demon Deacons and go to every home game! Games on Wednesdays-Saturdays are often accompanied by lots of victory parties in the evenings at frats. School spirit is strong here which, sports fan or not, is a nice thing to have on a campus in my opinion! So the short answer is that it does play a big role but those who don’t care for sports will not feel left out!
I would definitely agree with that! I never felt like, whenever I would receive a poor grade, that it was unjustified. It was often that I didn’t manage my time properly: perhaps devoted too much time into a class that took time away from others or just dove too deep into an unnecessary hobby. Work Forest is a perfect nickname to its core!
I personally don’t use the term grade-inflation or grade-deflation. I have friends who have 4.0 GPA’s and I have friends with below 2.5 so I often have trouble telling if Wake is balanced or sways to one side. I will say that several of my chem classes had class averages of around a C. For those in pre-med/health, this would pose a problem for admissions. Professional schools place such a heavy emphasis on grades so Wake’s grading might put you at a disadvantage. My upper level biology classes, however, almost always had a B+ to A- average. The same could be said about my liberal arts requirements. It’s hard to exactly say if Wake is balanced or not.
Regardless of GPA, the later success rate of graduates is quite high. I don’t have a statistic for this but most, if not all, graduates that I know from the previous graduating class have a job lined up, grad school position, internship, or fellowship. Wake carries some heft to its name (especially in the Carolinas) along with many resources (Office of Career Development) and connections that lead students to gaining successful careers regardless of their grades!
Statistics actually suggest that the later success rate of graduates is high mostly if they come from privileged backgrounds. Students entering Wake from the lower socioeconomic quartile did not have a high rate of success in terms of moving out of the lower quartile a number of years after graduation, compared with the socio-economic movement of similar graduates from other schools similar to Wake.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/wake-forest-university
To translate: if you come to Wake from a financially successful family background, you will likely do well. If you come to Wake from a relatively less privileged background, your chances of upward mobility after graduation will be less than they would have been if you had gone to another school…
@WFUparent1 Thank you for sharing that, it’s a bit disheartening to see that statistic. I feel like many of the lower income students come to Wake and sacrifice so much time and savings in order to get the education to help their family move up the socioeconomic ladder. To see so little actually able to gain that upward mobility post-grad is upsetting.
Would be more helpful to compare the upward mobility results from other similar universities to know whether or not it is a Wake-specific issue. Otherwise, all you’re doing is condemning the school for a systemic issue that may be pervasive. For instance, Davidson has even lower upward mobility figures.
1 Like
That’s why I urge some applicants here to consider their state schools, where they can more easily excel and also have better access to the academic, social, and career opportunities that there is a lot of competition for at Wake…
It also seems likely that it would be risky for a non-high-stat, non-affluent student to take on significant educational debt in order to attend Wake.
@cltrising, I don’t know if you looked at the study I linked, but the specific finding was that Wake’s performance on this metric (how lower-quartile students did with upward mobility after graduation), was lower than that for comparable schools. So this is clearly not a “pervasive systemic issue” that all schools have. Some schools do better, and some schools do worse. Wake is on the worse end of the spectrum.
The fact that there’s another school with a worse track record doesn’t mean that Wake’s performance is good compared to its peers, right? It just means it would be a bigger mistake to go to Davidson than to Wake lol.
And no one is “condemning” Wake. The comment is that it may not be a great match for a particular type of student. High-stat students from affluent families will likely be very happy at Wake, and have success in life. But I think those types of families should not use this forum to shame and silence posters from different backgrounds who have had different experiences.
I hope we could all agree that applicants who are relatively weaker, or from less well-resourced backgrounds, have a right to a balanced picture of what they could expect their experience at the school to be like.
I did look at the study and many of what would be considered Wake’s direct peers (Wash U, William & Mary, Davidson, Richmond, W&L) had almost identical, or worse, upward mobility indices. Maybe it isn’t a Wake-specific issue? Two that seem to be doing relatively better are Rice and Emory.
@cltrising interesting analysis. I hadn’t noticed that but you’re right. Wake is in the same range as most other elite Southern schools. Although its upward mobility indices are #48 out of 64 elite schools nationally, it’s #2 when compared to all North Carolina schools.
So maybe the message is that students from the lower economic quintile shouldn’t go to private school in the South…
Interesting discussion re upward mobility. Lots of ways to view and interpret the data. That’s always the challenge with statistics. How big is the sample size, are raw numbers more important, etc.
One category I view as a positive, although it had Wake towards the “bottom” (but within the same range as many others), was the likelihood of bottom % moving to a much higher % (I forget the exact numbers). Wake was at 40% and listed very low. I view that as 40% of low socioeconomic kids moving up to much higher levels is a good thing in and of itself. That’s almost half the kids. Would 45% or 50% be better? Sure. I guess in comparison to others it is fewer but not by that much. I think it would be interesting to see a comparison of the same student set comparing them to their home state school. What was the climb in that setting? Then it becomes a different conversation. Is a kid better off going to an elite private (any) vs. the state flagship?
I’m sure it would differ greatly depending on state.
That was the point I was trying to make. You stated it much more elegantly than I.
In post #32 above, @cltrising wrote:
“Two that seem to be doing relatively better are Rice and Emory.”
Rice and Emory are located in large cities (Houston & Atlanta) with robust economies and lots of major employers.
That’s a very good point. So many factors weigh in beyond basic numbers.
Quite anecdotal but S’ group of friends includes some essentially full ride (need based) kids and they are doing just fine. Have strong internships and will make that jump from bottom to top.
Other factors the report doesn’t consider is what occupations these kids seek. A poor kid who attends a “wealthy” school and gets a humanities type degree, or education, or whatever and pursues teaching (k-12), social work, etc is not likely going to make that jump. The wealthy kids that do the same will actually go down in tiers based on earned income (yes I know they may be taken care of through support or inheritance). My guess is if a lower income kid comes to any of these schools with a goal of certain studies that lead to higher income producing careers, they’ll make the jump.
The economic mobility puzzle has so many pieces. There have been many good points raised in this discussion.
DD is a senior at Wake, DS will be a freshman in three weeks. I remember what a Wake football player told me three years ago when I asked about his major. He said, “I’d like to major in business, but I don’t think I’ll have time due to my football committment.”
Wake is the smallest of the “Power Five” athletic schools, and has a large number of scholarship athletes, many of whom come from lower income families. Academics are extremely time consuming at the school, especially in the preprofessional programs with high earning potential. I think the Business Enterprise Management degree requires 63 hours of study as opposed to 36 for most majors. Academic workload and extracurriculars likely sometimes conflict in a manner that might limit athletes’ choices to those with lower income potential.
^ interesting. Never thought about that. Although some go pro, most don’t and if they’re not pursuing high income earning professions, they’re unlikely to move from bottom to top.