The whole debate is irrelevant. At elite colleges, there is never a time when Muffy from Andover is competing against Jorge from Impoverished School. The elite colleges know how many they want in each sub-bucket, and one is competing against that sub-bucket. So Muffy may get in if Andover calls and Hotchkiss does not for Biff, but neither bears on the admission chances of poor full need Jorge
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There will be if those who want merit only - nothing else - considered.
Not necessarily. At Oxford ( a place that values scores and merit most highly), Brighton Academy, a government school in a poor neighborhood, gets more acceptances than Eton, a legendary private school.
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Of course, each college has its own definition of “merit”, although few colleges in the US are likely to define it with as heavy weight on SAT/ACT as seems popular on these forums. (Internationally, standardized tests may be much more heavily weighted in some countries, but they also have standardized tests that are more subject focused and include more difficult problems to help distinguish between applicants at the high end.)
Can you link to this Brighton Academy? The one that seems most prominent in a web search is a specialty performing arts school. There is a Brighton College that is an independent day and boarding school that brags about its 80 students to Oxford over the past 7 years.
My husband is a former AO. He says for many schools “merit” aid is just a marketing tool and it is simply a tuition discount and there are no stats involved.
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I’ve certainly seen that. Non-selective private colleges on the verge of bankruptcy offering “merit” scholarships to students whose record implies that they really belong in remedial classes at a community college, in an attempt to fill classroom seats and dormitory beds with students who are at least paying something.
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Perhaps @roycroftmom is referring to Brampton Manor Academy, a remarkable success story (“Record 89 students secure Oxbridge offers” in 2022) in sending kids from an underprivileged area of London to top UK universities.
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The sixth form at Brampton Manor is highly selective - cherry picks high performers.
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Thank you to @LostInTheShuffle for correcting the name to Brampton. Yes, 6th form is selective ( so is Eton). Brampton is free and the students are largely underprivileged and still compete and do very well.
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It definitely shows how good help from others can change people’s lives, working far better than expecting kids to be able to be scrappy, figure out what they don’t know, and “do it themselves.”
Not all kids from any socio-economic class will be able to compete at the top, but it would be nice if all had a realistic chance.
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Agreed. That is why we should all support Questbridge, Posse,Cooke scholars, etc
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I am far from being an expert on Brampton Manor but the things I feel that have made a significant difference are: 1) Changing perceptions of what’s possible to strive for and 2) strong support on the practicalities of becoming competitive candidates at top UK universities. It’s awesome to see!
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I.e. basically analogous to academically selective public schools like Stuyvesant and similar schools in the US?
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For sure kids need to know they’re capable of doing things. Often, even from home, they get negative feedback for even trying to be different.
When one of my guys worked at a summer camp for inner city kids in FL his eyes were opened. One story he related was talking to a youngster who was obviously smart and talented and encouraging him to do well in school so he could go on to do more. The kid looked back at him and said, “That’s your world. You can do that. If I tried to do that I’ll get shot.”
Not long after hearing that story here in a city in PA a straight A teenager was shot one night and no one knew why. Like all stories, it fell from the news so I don’t know if they ever followed up, but I have to wonder if his trying to break out was why.
My guy had thought about a job in that line of work, but told me after his summer that he couldn’t do it. It was too sad. He’d have the kids for a week and could change their lives/actions/attitudes for that one week, but then they had to leave, usually in tears, to return to “their world.”
We only know what we’re exposed to. Sure, an occasional success story makes it out and people like to champion it as if everyone can do it. What about the straight A student who got shot?
I agree with @roycroftmom that supporting Questbridge and similar is terrific to help the kids who can reach that stage. Our country loses a lot of talent from capable kids who miss out, but at least a few can get assistance to break free.
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I don’t think anyone is saying that, it’s just a strawman you keep bringing up. The data around economic mobility though shows that about 9% of kids in the bottom fifth achieve the top fifth income bracket. So it’s not like everyone can use hard work, skills, and luck to have higher income as there are still 91% who remain where they are or maybe move up 1 or 2 income quintiles.
“Pointing to the college application process as the problem when talking about dysfunctional families, alcoholism, abuse, etc seems to be putting the cart in front of the horse.”
The structural problems are more important to address for sure, but it’s the college application process that really reveals the differences, so it will get more attention. Higher income students have always attended college at a higher rate than low-income, the gap has gotten better, maybe 20-25% more likely now, but it used be 70% more in the 90s, according to the economic mobility work mentioned above.
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Can you link this, because I just did a google search and found a 2012 study that cites 4%, not 9%. It would be a nice step in the right direction if newer numbers show a decent growth rate, but I can’t find it on a relatively quick search. Here’s what I found.
There’s quite a bit more than I quoted:
Only 4 percent of those raised in the
bottom quintile make it all the way
to the top as adults, confirming that
the “rags-to-riches” story is more
often found in Hollywood than in
reality. Similarly, just 8 percent of
those raised in the top quintile fall
all the way to the bottom.
Americans raised at the bottom and
top of the family income ladder are
likely to remain there as adults, a
phenomenon known as “stickiness at
the ends.”
While a majority of Americans
exceed their parents’ family incomes,
the extent of that increase is not
always enough to move them to a
different rung of the family income
ladder.
Forty-three percent of Americans
raised in the bottom quintile remain
*stuck in the bottom as adults, and *
70 percent remain below the middle.
Forty percent raised in the top
quintile remain at the top as adults,
and 63 percent remain above the
middle.
Sixty-six percent of those raised
in the bottom of the wealth ladder
remain on the bottom two rungs
themselves, and 66 percent of those
raised in the top of the wealth ladder
remain on the top two rungs.
The fact that kids, indeed, also fall from quintiles is probably related to the belief that it needs to be Top X or bust when it comes to colleges. What I see at school, though, isn’t that. Kids fall due to personality traits being opposite of their parents (not good at running a business), and there’s a decent number who actually reject being in the higher class for a more “planet friendly” way of life. They head toward minimalism.
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And where do Muffy from Andover or Biff from Hotchkiss fit if they were financial aid students at those institutions? Since both are need blind and meets needs schools, this scenario is entirely possible…
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Lots of students qualify in more than 1 bucket. URM and legacy, for example.
Sure, the one I referenced is from the work Raj Chetty has done on economic mobility (first page), his data was used in the NYT college mobility index as well.
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