Risks of SEAS

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
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<p>Hi Everyone (Especially High School Students),</p>

<p>This post isn't a rant, but it's a point of consideration for high school students who apply and matriculate to SEAS. Please keep in mind that SEAS is a binding decision, and that there is only one avenue to transfer into the College if you find that you dislike engineering. I realize that Columbia is a strong institution for research and is ranked number 4 by USNWR. In addition, the acceptance rate for SEAS tends to be higher than that for CC.</p>

<p>It's a difficult decision to make at the age of 17 or 18: whether you want to study engineering. In my opinion, it's an absurd decision that the admissions committee places on you. Engineering isn't for everyone so please realize that what you study is more important than where you study. An education doesn't determine your happiness in college, but it can greatly affect it.</p>

<p>There are a significant number of students in SEAS who don't see engineering as a career path. These students want to go into finance, law, or medicine. Realize that your GPA will be lower and that medical, law, and business schools as well as financial services employers generally won't give you that much slack when it comes to having lower grades. </p>

<p>Engineering is a great education. It's hard, definitely hard. However, I've felt that I can better tackle academic challenges and I will come out of school with a concrete skill set. However, I plan on entering financial services so I question whether I will ever utilize the skills I've gained. This is debatable, but I feel that I've sacrificed parts of my social life to finish CS projects, problem sets, or midterms. If you plan on going to graduate school in a non-engineering related field, please evaluate your goals and passions. Decide SEAS not solely because it's a part of Columbia, but because you truly want the engineering education and are aware of its associated costs.</p>

<p>Best of luck to everyone for ED results.</p>

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<p>So basically you are trying to push possible SEAS applicants to CC so the acceptance rate for CC could further decrease, and SEAS’s increases?</p>

<p>Is that your point?</p>

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<p>Well, at least you will have gained skills coming out of SEAS, whereas the vast majority of CC kids don’t acquire any skills at all.</p>

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<p>@Silence </p>

<p>No…I think the OP’s just telling us to make wise decisions about life.</p>

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<p>I’m not saying to apply to CC, but please know that going into SEAS and discovering you don’t like engineering is a big risk. Please don’t do what I did which was to say “Columbia…ranked 8th…sounds great!”</p>

<p>I know it seems ridiculous to ask questions of whether you’d be happy at a school before you’re accepted, but definitely don’t wait until the last minute to research. Look at the culture of the school and definitely speak to lots of students. I came from a public school that sends one student to an Ivy League each year so I didn’t have the luxury of someone who could give me honest feedback. Use your school’s alumni to ask questions. </p>

<p>If you can learn the culture of the school through pre-frosh visits, realize that the admissions committee will try really hard to paint a rosy picture of the school (like any rational admissions committee would). Speak to upperclassman, not just freshman that you’re paired up with, because freshman year is not an indicator of how hard engineering gets. Learn as much as possible and try to see yourself 3-4 years down the road. Getting into university is just an important first step, not the crowning achievement of your life.</p>

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<p>and as usual here’s the other half of the perspective:</p>

<p>I actually agree with Beard Tax for the most part here - engineering is not for most people and don’t automatically think that you are that special or different that it will suit you. It suits someone who is ready to work very hard and grasp deeply analytical and mathematical concepts and that isn’t most (even top) students going to college. if you are questioning whether engineering is really you, it probably isn’t really you. The lower average GPA really irks me, there’s no way seas should be given lower average grades than CC, the classes are generally more difficult and in all honesty should have higher average grades.</p>

<p>The positives are that I didn’t really sacrifice to much to get to where I wanted to. I did work hard, but some good time management and “working smart” saved a lot of time on problem sets and studying for tests. I really enjoyed every aspect of Columbia in my 4 years from sports games, to exploring new york, to doing extra-curricular activities, making close friends and doing random things as well like playing four square or going to snowball fights.</p>

<p>Finally here’s the good: employers were willing to not only interview my friends and I, but would also understand that engineers receive lower grades. Beardtax is a Junior and has not yet gone through the brunt of finance recruiting, but even my 3.2 gpa friends got ~10 interviews and in some cases 2-3 offers. If your gpa is below 3.0 job interviews dry up quickly. Most employers realize the work ethic and analytical skills that come with an engineering education. Having been on wall street for nearly 6 months now, I can see a clear difference in the performance of those who received a quantitative / highly analytical education and those who did not. The econ, finance majors around, were very good with spewing jargon during training, but not as adept at completing tasks efficiently and analytically, which is what finance almost demands. I don’t know what it’s like for med or law school, but finance companies definitely do like to hire SEAS students, because they are after all highly diligent and often very smart.</p>

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<p>and trust me when I say that getting into Law School X / Med School Y or Investment Bank Z is so far from the crowning achievement of your life, it’s not even funny. As with everything in your life, it’s more important what you do at a specific place than whether that specific place is X,Y,Z. Some of the best investment banking recruits last no more than 6 months in the field they had dreamed of breaking into for 4 (maybe more) years. College is one of the most impressionable years of your life and also where (i feel) you learn the most, maximize the learning and things will fall into place no matter where you’re placed straight after.</p>

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<p>Yea, I definitely can see how Beard Tax is slightly biased and opportunistic. He seems wanting to sway applicants toward CC. The fact of the matter is, most people know whether they want a more quantitative or less quantitative education by the time they apply. People also know their own strengths, at least they should if they are applying to the Ivy League. If not, the application process should have given them enough time to soul search. I am not denying that people may change their mind in the future, but one should never make a decision speculating too far into the future. In the end, the possibilities are endless, and one cannot make a decision taking into account all the hypotheticals. It is important, on the other hand, to follow what makes the most sense today.</p>

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<p>I think beard tax is spot on. As a parent, I believe young people should leave doors open as long as possible. One good thing about SEAS is that it affirmatively recognizes that “engineering” is not the career path for all SEAS graduates. Nevertheless, doors close upon entry to SEAS. I firmly believe that no one should close doors as a high school senior, and thus, for the overwhelming majority, Columbia College is the better choice.</p>

<p>For those who think beard tax’s posts represent some Machiavellian attempt to steer applicants toward one applicant pool or the other, rest assured that he/she is long past that stage.</p>

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<p>It’s annoying how Columbia makes the technically-minded kids choose between engineering and science while they’re in high school. Sure, most humanities-oriented CC kids are fairly sure they don’t want to major in an engineering subject and most SEAS kids are somewhat sure they don’t want to major in a CC humanities major. But people don’t discuss how it’s hard for many 17 year olds to figure out if they want to major in biology vs biomedical engineering, chemistry vs chemical engineering, etc. I wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to do, and I found it annoying that I had to choose between CC and SEAS whereas this wasn’t the case at some of the other schools I applied to.</p>

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<p>I’m curious. Why do some elite schools separate the engineering from the liberal arts schools (Cornell, Penn, Columbia), while others integrate the two (Harvard, Yale)? Is there a concern that admissions won’t be able to predict accurately how many admitted students will migrate from one side to the other, and thus resources will be stretched on one side and underutilized by the other?</p>

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<p>I’ve always wondered the same thing. My guess would be that some schools see it as a curriculum thing. It’s probably almost essential for kids to get their calculus, general chem, and physics in as a freshmen if the school wants them to get out with engineering degrees in four years. So an “engineering school” allows the school to make sure everyone stays on track and gets their prereqs done so they can delve into their majors. Obviously this isn’t necessary because some elite schools don’t have such a system, so I’m not sure what goes into a uni’s decision to have a separate engineering school.</p>

<p>I can’t see it possibly being a resources thing. As a general matter, elite schools don’t seem to worry about predicting who goes into what major and overstretched resources.</p>

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<p>Harvard has its own engineering school… And pretty much all schools have separate schools for engineering and non-engineering majors. And I don’t see a problem with that since engineering and humanities subjects are so different.</p>

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<p>the reason some schools don’t allow free major change is because of attrition from engineering, I remember reading an article in the harvard crimson that the vast majority of kids who start engineering as freshmen at harvard migrate to social sciences / humanities, it was something like 70%, so the engineering majors are left sparse with students.</p>

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<p>As a SEAS parent, I agree with the above quote. One of my kids was sure that he wanted to be an engineer, so he applied ED to SEAS and has been happy with his choice. The other wasn’t sure if he wanted engineering or pure science, so a better option was a school that allows students to take classes in both and then choose further down the road. </p>

<p>I agree with the OP that engineering requires a commitment in terms of study time and course rigor and shouldn’t be entered into lightly. Having gone through the admissions cycle last year, I found it interesting that come May 1, the SEAS yield was so unexpectedly high that SEAS did not accept anyone from the waitlist, whereas CC accepted quite a few from the waitlist. Increased popularity of engineering or something else?</p>

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<p>Grading differentials between engineering and humanities fields seem to be the norm in higher education. Not that this is a good thing.</p>

<p>It seems to me that most universities organize engineering into a separate college, and only a small number of them, with relatively small engineering programs and many non-ABET track students, don’t. Though I may be mistaken. I agree such organization is not inevitable, and I don’t know the history behind it. Though I can well imagine that, back in the day, the humanities professors did not want to pollute their
number with these “practical” majors.</p>

<p>Perhaps the particular problem at Columbia, if there is one, is here:
“…there is only one avenue to transfer into the College if you find that you dislike engineering.”</p>

<p>I’m not sure what that means exactly (how many avenues would you like? Side roads? Highways?). But if it means that there is in practice a high bar in effect that materially limits transfer between Fu and the College, seems like that is your institution-specific problem. There are other universities where the bar is not set all that high.</p>

<p>However, even in this case a disenchanted Fu student is free to transfer to an Arts & Sciences college other than Columbia, and then pursue a program of studies that fits better elsewhere. IIRC I’ve read recent posts of a Fu student who is doing just that,applying for intercollege transfer but, since that is not assured, also externally.</p>

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<p>When I say that there is one avenue, I mean that you must apply as any other transfer student. There’s no internal transfer process that is often found in Cornell, Penn, or CMU. The question is not only how the schools are organized but how easily it is to transfer in between the humanities, sciences, and engineering. Engineering schools found in Duke, Harvard, Princeton, or Yale allow for students to transfer easily while Penn requires an application, but allows you to transfer during the spring or fall.</p>

<p>At Columbia, the process is extremely difficult and competitive. Transfers must apply with the regular applicant pool (Common App, Essays, High School Grades, etc.) [Internal</a> transfers - WikiCU, the Columbia University wiki encyclopedia](<a href=“http://www.wikicu.com/Internal_transfers]Internal”>Internal transfers - WikiCU, the Columbia University wiki encyclopedia)</p>

<p>“Students rarely transfer from SEAS to CC” though I’ve met quite a few students who’ve tried or have considered the process. Many students who didn’t bother applying found the process to be daunting, competitive, and time consuming. I’m not sure how persuasive the argument “Engineering isn’t for me” is at other schools. However, this statement does not engender sympathy from Columbia unless you find a compelling reason you want to be CC.</p>

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<p>Beard Tax, I’m sorry if I was unnecessarily suspicious of you. But you do sound unreasonably one sided. Friends from Columbia tell me that there are disenchanted students on both sides. </p>

<p>The same reason a student might find SEAS distasteful also applies to CC. There are quantitative students in CC who find CC’s humanities focused curriculum and core very burdensome. It essentially takes up 1/3 of a student’s entire time at Columbia. Many want to transfer to SEAS, because its selection of classes are more quantitative in general. And fewer humanities requirement exist, though SEAS students do take humanities classes. </p>

<p>Also, CC students want to transfer to SEAS because in general CC is humanities orientated. Last year, only 8 people majored in physics, 3 in chemistry, and some 20 people in Math. The quantitative culture is simply small in CC where there are around 1000 students per class. This is also a reason why some quantitative students want to go to SEAS, where there is a much bigger network of students, staff, and administrators helping and looking after a quantitative student’s interest. </p>

<p>There is no “confining” yourself when you go to SEAS. Columbia in general makes sure that what you major in, you will have the flexibility to switch to any other professions. That is the hallmark of Columbia and indeed other Ivy League schools. Engineering majors from Columbia and other elite schools, as you can see and might have read, have gone on to many other professions other than engineering. They have strong presence in business, law, medicine, music, administration, etc because of their skills they’ve gained from Ivy League engineering which fuses both quantitative and humanities study. The degree, if it does anything, is hone your skill and make you better trained to embark on any career that requires critical thinking and planning. Of course CC teaches you to do that too, but SEAS has a more quantitative twist to it. The administrators at Columbia even says that engineering is the liberal arts of 21st century, when skills and insights in technology are more important than ever. </p>

<p>Finally, some CC students want to transfer to SEAS because of jobs. A liberal arts major is great, but it almost always requires more graduate study (law school) etc for a student to be marketable. Any lucrative private sector jobs now explicitly state they want students of strong quantitative background. Of course there is a bad side to engineering. Some see it as a “practical” education, and looks down upon such study. But if you really want to be idealistic, then do major in philosophy. The bad thing about philosophy major is that it is harder, though not impossible, to get lucrative jobs. You just have to try harder.</p>

<p>That being said, there are negatives to attending both schools, and it is unfortunate that high school students like us have to choose. But the “risk of seas” is a systemic risk that is present in choosing any college. You will never know for sure whether you’ll end up liking a school or the curriculum it offers, until you get there. So it is rather moot and obvious to say hey, the risk of applying to SEAS is that you might end up not liking the engineering spin it has. You might as well make more posts stating: the risk of carnegie mellon, the risk of harvard, the risk of cornell, the risk of upenn, the risk of MIT… but please don’t do that.</p>

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<p>It’s pretty simple. If you’re a high school senior and you don’t KNOW that you want to study engineering, apply to CC. SEAS is an ENGINEERING school for ENGINEERING students who want to take classes in ENGINEERING. If you don’t want that, you belong in CC.</p>

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<p>It is pretty obvious like you said. Which is why I wonder BeardTax started this thread in the first place. But there is one thing about what you said is wrong. SEAS students take many classes that is non-engineering. It is not a vocational school that is around these days.</p>

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<p>"But the “risk of seas” is a systemic risk that is present in choosing any college. "</p>

<p>Actually OP is suggesting that the risk is greater at Fu than at some alternative choices.</p>

<p>Because if you are at FU and wind up “not liking the curriculum it offers”, there’s a good chance you would have to leave the university altogether, all your friends,etc, to get the curriculum you now think you want. Whereas at some other places OP mentioned, transfer to another college within the same university seems far easier, with a lower bar to clear.</p>

<p>“It’s pretty simple. If you’re a high school senior and you don’t KNOW that you want to study engineering, apply to CC.”</p>

<p>Perhaps better yet, apply to a school where it is easier to transfer from engineering to other majors. The problem with your approach is then, in practice, you almost certainly will not become an engineer, but you weren’t sure that you didn’t want to be one. At most schools generally it is easier to transfer out of engineering than in, due to required engineering courses missed prior to transfer. IMO.</p>