<p>Friedokra:</p>
<p>Check out the average SAT scores of the kids at TJ, or, more importantly, their average test scores before they matriculate to TJ, a public HS btw, and then decide whether adds "polish."</p>
<p>Well, why wouldnt a school want to polish their kids? It helps both the school administration and the kids.</p>
<p>AdOfficer - your advice/comments are wonderful! My D is one who went through some personal/health issues sophomore year and bounced back with a vengeance....</p>
<p>Freshman year, mostly A's, some B's.
Sophomore, all B's, (despite the issues mentioned above)
Junior, Almost ALL A's, in all available Honors/AP's
SAT's 800CR, 660M, 730W etc etc</p>
<p>The sophomore issues will be addressed by GC in recommendation and by D in her essay/statement.</p>
<p>How do I respond to her when she (miserably) says "But now I'm not in top 10% because of Sophomore year. I'll never be considered for an Honors program" or "I won't ever get a Merit scholarship because of my sophomore year" etc etc. Some of these things specifically state that they are reserved for applicants in the top decile. Are they set in stone, or is there some play there as well? Since you don't APPLY for an honors program, or merit aid, how would the prior issues be considered in those decisions?</p>
<p>I'm a high school senior currently attending a tiny school in North Dakota.
You think you've seen small? Try 18 people in my graduating class.
I will likely graduate with something of a 3.8 or 3.9 avg, but am likely going to be 3rd in my class. The only way to be in the top 5% is to be valedictorian... and top 10% barely includes a second person (if at all)
Did I mention that there are no AP/Honors classes and the highest math available is 'Senior Math'- an introduction to trig </p>
<p>I received a 32 on my act, significantly higher than anyone in my class, but I'm wondering whether my rank will hurt my chances at some colleges.
I'm not looking at Ivy League, I am realistic =)</p>
<p>becmojo:</p>
<p>When dealing with a graduating class as small as your, colleges don't consider rank. Your ACT score is impressive; your location in North Dakota should be of interest to many colleges. What your teachers have to say about you and your essay will be of great importance. Let us know if we can be of help.</p>
<p>friedokra...</p>
<p>some private schools do do a lot to "polish" their students, but don't think for a minute that public schools cannot or do not do the same. they do. nevertheless, you may want to speak to admissions officers and the ivies and other elite colleges and universities...you will find they are intelligent people, capable of discerning from polish and a diamond in the rough. give us some credit! </p>
<p>that's not to say that there are not "feeder schools" to the elites...there are. and the students who attend these schools are privileged in many ways, whether they are at these schools as a 4th generation legacy or there on a full scholarship. these high schools are typically feeders because they do an excellent job of preparing their students for college and they stake their reputations on this. nevertheless, we can see through the polish that is put on beyond the academic stuff. </p>
<p>justamom...</p>
<p>your daughter first needs to chill out :). she has an excellent record academically! your daughter's best bet is to do her homework about the schools she is interested in and ASK QUESTIONS. she should call the schools, explain her situation, and ask if they holistically review applications. many public schools do not and cannot do this because of limited human resources, but others can and do. many privates do do a holistic review. if she understands how applications are reviewed at the schools she is interested in, she can then take the appropriate steps in her application (or emails or phone calls) to make sure that the reader/admissions committee has an accurate perception of her achievements, talents, and potential. if a school's policy is set in stone, she will probably not be surprised by the outcome; if she identifies schools that are able to holistically review her achievements and potential, she may be very surprised with the reception she gets!</p>
<p>becmojo...
unless there is a huge gap in your academic achievements and those of the 2 students ranked ahead of you, don't stress. obviously, the math is against you (3/18), but the schools you apply to will see your small class size and probably wouldn't pay too much attention to your rank if they review holistically. and why not apply to some ivies? if you feel you are prepared for the academics and are interested in some of them, give it a shot. just because your school may be limited, that doesn't mean your potential is!</p>
<p>Adofficer:</p>
<p>I appreciate your thoughts and candor. I only ask for full disclosure from schools in the admissions process. I want them to tell it like it really is: who they admit, who they reject and why, and what exceptions they make and why. </p>
<p>As for discerning between polish and true gems, I sort of agree, but also disagree. If the transcript is loaded with grades they did not actually earn, then you will never know the truth. That is what I was referring to. I know of three kids last year who had scores below 90 (the private school cutoff for an A) who had their grades bumped so the transcript would not be "tarnished". I also know that school has liberal grading policies. They project a mission of toughness and "better than public schools" but they are not so. They do have some great teachers and good classes. But not nearly the rigor and depth of the public school my D went to.</p>
<p>Its a well documented fact that the elites prefer kids from private schools and "feeder schools." Its not illegal. Its their college, their money, their policy. I just want them to disclose up front so people wont be disillusioned and get false hopes.</p>
<p>I know as Adofficers you have a daunting task, which I wouldnt want for a million years. I would gladly interview kids and make recommendations, but I wouldnt want the task of cutting kids or admitting kids in the final round.</p>
<p>I have a strong bias towards character and less towards "stats." Yes, there is certainly a measure of truth in most grades and scores, but its a blunt instrument. And yes, I have no problem with schools being "selective" or "highly selective." Just publish the truth so people can see what is going on. If someone who is advised they have a slim to nil chance of getting in with a 1380 SAT and still apply knowing that, then the risk is on them. If however, they are told they have a good chance, that the school looks at the whole person and considers all the factors, then in reality uses a computer program to reject anyone below 1450, then that is a misrepresentation and a grave disservice to everyone involved. I would much rather know the truth up front and make decisions accordingly. And frankly, if I were a professional Adofficer, I would feel a lot better about the job if the numbers were put out there in honest fashion. </p>
<p>A great number of applications come into schools each year from wannabes...but many of them, if not most, are holding out false hopes....sometimes stoked by the glamorous ad campaigns and warm and fuzzy comments of admissions....then coldly reject kids below a certain number....call it the strike number (like in stock options). While its your prerogative to set standards of admission, which I certainly do NOT challenge, it would be best for all if the strike number, red line, whatever you want to call it, is disclosed. Say, "below an SAT of 1400 (or whatever), and a GPA of 3.7 and a class rank below the top 10%, your chances of admission at our university are gravely diminished. We wish we could accomodate all of you excellent students, but we are limited in the number of seats we have available. Good luck to you all." Something like that.</p>
<p>And a statement like, "we reserve the right to admit students of legacy, athletes or other minorities, according to the policies set by our Board of Trustees, regardless of our normal standards of admission."</p>
<p>But thanks for your comments. FWIW, my D was accepted at an outstanding "match" school in the Northeast. While it was not her first choice, she is now very happy and very grateful. She holds no ill will (nor do I) towards any school that waitlisted her or rejected her (the reach schools), knowing full well that whatever happens in admissions is not a judgment upon the outstanding institutions of higher learning, its just a business decision. What gripes us the most however, is seeing kids we KNOW had transcripts embellished by having grades bumped silently (these kids told my D what happened...so its first person confirmation), to avoid having any B's on their transcript and then seeing them get into the Ivy of choice. We congratulated the kids and know they will do well....but it bothers us that their true scores were not reported to the schools.</p>
<p>And yes, there may well be some public schools that do the same. In fact, I know at my D's public high school there is a considerable amount of teacher shopping....avoiding teachers who are notorious hard graders in AP classes, to ensure they get the "A". Is that fair? Well...its shrewd.....call it what you may. My D still says she would rather take the B (she scored 92.1 on a 7 point scale, missing an "A" by .9.) and have had the experience of a tough teacher, who taught her a great deal and is now one of her best friends. He wrote her recommendations and did such a good job, some schools wrote back to him and commended his work and thanked him for recommending my D. (It didnt work...she got waitlisted anyway at this top 10 school in the midwest.)</p>
<p>Life is not fair a good deal of the time. Stuff happens. Its a lesson in humility and honesty for my D and she knows in the long run she will be a better person for having endured the "jungle" and still got admitted to an excellent school.</p>
<p>and finally, I am anything but an elitist. I am one who thinks there are many hidden gems in colleges that are not on the USNWR top 50 list.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>A couple of posters have mentioned Thomas Jefferson. TJ ( a selective public high school) provides an excellent example of why not being in the top 10% is not a disqualification for elite colleges. The average TJ student has SAT scores at least equal to the averge SAT scores of the top 20 Universities, the Ivy League, and the top 20 LAC's (only slightly below the average for HYP). These students are socially and economically diverse and no sensible college would choose to pass on one them simply because they fell outside of the top 10%.</p>
<p>Do colleges look at your rank as of the end of junior year or do they see an updated rank for your senior year?</p>
<p>marite:</p>
<p>I am not familiar with the public high schools you mentioned as I am not in the northeast. But fwiw, my D went to a highly rated (the people who administer the sat also rank high schools by the sat scores they produce) public school. </p>
<p>Its interesting to note there are three large, prominent public high schools in my community. 2 others that are less prominent and lower rated. Of the top three schools, it appears that every year their class either gets very lucky or very hosed....pardon the pun, and it rotates. Last year it was my D's school that did well. This year not so well. Another school got the lions' share of Ivy admissions. Is that coincidence? I have no idea. While my D's classmates over all (those in the top 33%) did very well (my judgment) on admissions this year, including a large number who got into a superb state school of national prominence and in the USNWR top 50), they were largely rejected and waitlisted at HYP, Stanford etc. Were their scores less than the previous year's class? I dont think so.</p>
<p>I know admissions is not an exact science. Its evolving as well....the admissions vary with demographics and other factors from year to year and most kids who got into HYP 20 years ago would likely not be admitted today. A huge surge in demographics (children of baby boomers) is the single largest cause. </p>
<p>Again, a great deal of the frustration and disappointment could be resolved by the colleges publishing a truthful standard of admission: below this number/rank/gpa you have slim chances, above this number you have a good chance or better chance. Something like that. That would get rid of a lot of the wannabes who are stoked with false hopes.
</p>
<p>There is not much a college can do about a high school who bumps kids grades to polish their applications. But a good Adofficer may be able to get anecdotal reports from the community on a school reputation. If the bumping is frequent and pervasive, it will get out what is going on, and they can take that into consideration, and at a minimum inform the responsible school that there are stories floating around about bumping grades to embellish transcripts.</p>
<p>Public schools for the most part dont do nearly the job they could or should do for kids. The numbers are daunting of course, but they have a sort of "let the chips fall where they may" attitude a good deal of the time. There is NOTHING wrong with fair and accurate polishing....that is, making the student look good by showing the student how to accentuate the positive and so forth....even if they have paid SAT consultants on staff. (But from my perspective, the privileged kids wouldnt have an advantage, if I were the Adofficers. I came up the hard way and paid my own way through school...including graduate school.) What I object to is the unfair advantages they are creating by bumping grades on transcripts. That is dishonest polishing.</p>
<p>I would be very curious, I might add, to examine the socio-economic data of kid's families at TJ high school, and the educational background of their parents.</p>
<p>I am not a bleeding heart liberal nor a cold hearted bigot. Somewhere in between.....just kidding. But there is strong evidence, I have read, that kids from families with well educated parents, who earn above 60,000 a year, and live in upper middle class homes score a lot better on the SAT and have higher grades than kids from low income, low educational background etc families.</p>
<p>Thus, sometimes the "public school" is in a high income area and produce some high SAT scores etc. And that may have more to do with how they place, than the teachers they had in high school. Just a thought.</p>
<p>In my D's case that is definitely the case. But the school is notorious for grade deflation and tough teachers by and large. (though some AP teachers are known to be easier graders than others and that is very frustrating.) I do note, however, that at least one college we visited (UVa) says on their website that they have a pretty good idea which schools are grade inflaters and which schools are grade deflaters. I just dont know if they really consider that fact or not.</p>
<p>I.m.o., some of the best ("most transparent) admissions information, as to who has an edge, is from Naviance scattergrams. As far as I'm concerned, there really are certain schools that have historically been feeder schools to ivies. I do not say that resentfully. (My d's school is not such a h.s.) I say it matter-of-factly, but it does reinforce the last 2 sentences of post 71. I assume that at least 50% of the 'favoritism' effect is due to intimate knowledge of those particular schools -- their standards, their curricula, the typical graduate who applies to & attends the particular rigorous colleges in question. I think it is definitely more challenging to be admitted from a less well known school, with historically fewer grads attending, as less will be known how those students perform in the rigorous college.</p>
<p>epiphany...</p>
<p>"I think it is definitely more challenging to be admitted from a less well known school, with historically fewer grads attending, as less will be known how those students perform in the rigorous college."</p>
<p>this depends on the college, really. i was told by the admissions officer who admitted me to my top choice (years ago :() that they never had someone from my high school enroll, ever (the high school was, at the time, over 60 years old; the college was over 240 years old). historically, only 2 students had applied in the ten years prior to my application. this compelled the officer to take me because i represented a school they did not see in their classes. however, there are definitely some colleges and universities that rely HEAVILY on feeders and i would imagine that at these schools taking a risk on a kid from a school you aren't familiar with might be a tough choice. but, again, this is why it is important that admissions officers take the time to get to know the high schools in their territories...</p>
<p>friedokra...</p>
<p>i don't disagree with a lot of what you said, actually. i do hope you will be reassured, however, knowing that there are a lot of people in admissions who are also not cool with the polish and grade inflation that is happening at some high schools. and, believe me, we are on to it! you can inflate grades, get test prep, and cheat in high school...but you can't fake character - believe me, a student's true colors come through more often than not in their applications.</p>
<p>epiphany mentions Naviance--which is a good tool (if your HS uses it) for students to see how their "stats" fit as far as acceptances go historically.
At my D's school, for example, the lowest SAT score for acceptance at Amherst was 1450, at UChicago--1490, at Williams--1500, at Georgetown--1570, at Harvard--1590. If you're applying to "elite" schools it is certainly useful to have some barometer. Of course, this is only one part of the equation. Still, I've seen plenty of kids with questionable character and behavior granted admission to top schools. Some people are better than others at faking it! Have you read about the character-driven SAT III?</p>
<p>At S' high school, even the brightest, best testing, well rounded kids are advised not to apply to ivies because " Noone from this school ever gets admitted." S's school is the lowest ranked in our mid sized city: 27% of students do not graduate, and the free lunch numbers are about 45%. But there are still kids who graduate ready for a strenuous academic challenge. Year after year our valedictorians, award winning, talented kids are turned down at HYPMS. Not to say a great education is not available elsewhere, but is this saying our top achievers are not ready to compete with the kids from across the tracks?</p>
<h2>i don't disagree with a lot of what you said, actually. i do hope you will be reassured, however, knowing that there are a lot of people in admissions who are also not cool with the polish and grade inflation that is happening at some high schools. and, believe me, we are on to it! you can inflate grades, get test prep, and cheat in high school...but you can't fake character - believe me, a student's true colors come through more often than not in their applications.</h2>
<p>How are sterile pages of an application -- most particularly a "Common Application"-- depictive of character?</p>
<p>Adofficer: Thanks. I am glad you are onto it and hopefully more colleges will take a close look at grade inflation, grade bumping, and other assorted tricks in the basket. There is tremendous pressure at private high schools to get their kids admitted to top colleges.....all that money for nothing is a sore spot in peoples pocket books....so the games go on, sometimes at highly official levels.</p>
<p>I admit there is an edge to me because I did not come from privilege. In fact, to even afford college I had to enlist in military early to mid 70's and serve 6 years, then use the GI bill to finance my education, work three jobs, and take student loans. I proudly graduated with high honors, and then onto graduate school.</p>
<p>But I digress. This is not about me.</p>
<p>The common application has clouded the picture in my opinion. It encourages mass applications....kids who apply to 20 schools sometimes. Ridiculous. Even if they get in, they have no intention of going, and they end up taking an admit slot from someone who REALLY wanted to go but was on the bubble. A lot of that is ego and parents prestige. </p>
<p>On the other hand, with college admissions being hyper competitive and often very peculiar/bizarre/luck related, it behooves kids to make at least 6-8 applications.</p>
<p>I really do think if colleges published the whole truth about their admissions standards and acceptance rate people would see clearly if they are likely to be admitted or not and move accordingly. That would reduce the wannabes by a bunch.</p>
<p>And to that other poster: you are correct, its very difficult to discern character from an application. My D knows one kid last year who used to brag about his cheating skills.....he ended up NHS and top10% and got admitted to a prestigious state school...majoring in...you guessed it...."Accounting." She never turned him in, because she never caught him and didnt know if his bragging was gas or not. LOL.</p>
<p>as father of the boader and friedokra mention, the common application is a bit sterile. however, many students are able to shine through it. how? stellar essays that explain WHY whatever it is they are writing about is important to them can very easily tell us a lot about a student's character. and as students do have the option to write about whatever they want in their common application essay (see essay option 6), this is a great opportunity to reveal one's true self. also, essay option 1 asks: "evaluate a significant experience, achievement, risk you have taken, or ethical dilemma you have faced and its impact on you." if this doesn't elicit responses that reveal one's character, i don't know what question would. several of the other questions also make it easy to reveal one's character...</p>
<p>teacher recommendations are also of crucial importance in the common application and students, i believe, would be very surprised to know just how candid most of their teachers are in writing these recommendations - being both positive and negative in their assessments of high-achieving students. these recommendations more often than not talk about a student's character, integrity, level of academic engagement, and personality. this year, for example, i read several recommendations which alluded to cheating; another i read came out directly and said that the student was a "grade grubber." most teachers are honest with us...</p>
<p>interviews are another place where students can shine and if a school does offer them and they are a part of the application review, students need to take advantage of these.</p>
<p>the college application - in all of its parts - is not the place for one to be modest. as i have mentioned numerous times, it is important that students understand how applications are reviewed at each of the schools they are considering - having this information allows the student to understand how their stengths and weaknesses may be perceived in the applicant pools of each school they are applying to. DO YOUR HOMEWORK! if a school is not completely forthcoming about their review process, ask until you are satisfied - you have the right to know. however, also remember that until every application for a given year is processed and read, no one - including the dean of admissions - is going to know anyone's chances of gaining acceptance.</p>
<p>Hey AdOfficer, I have a question about one award which I've been told by many CC'ers hurts the application if you put the award on - is qualifying for "Mensa" positive or negative to be included in the application awards section? People have told me it would make the person seem as "an arrogant IQ freak" so I was just wondering</p>
<p>does the adcom look at unofficial ranks. As in when the counselor puts in their rec something like.."our HS doesn't rank, but if it did, this student would be in the top 5"</p>