<p>I am happy to give the school a chance. Honestly, the best thing UVa can do right now is take a leadership position on efforts to address sexual assault in the campus setting. I’d start with an audit of everything that goes on that contributes to an unhealthy environment for women (the so-called “rape culture”). Then I’d propose solutions, some of which have been suggested here. And I would be VERY transparent about everything, even going so far as addressing the topic with prospective students and their parents.</p>
<p>Too many smart people work at, attend, or hold degrees from UVa to let this be the undoing of the university and cause irreparable damage to its reputation. It’s good to see so much energy around making changes. I just hope they are sincere and followed through.</p>
<p>Wow, that mural is messed up. How does anyone find that appropriate for an institution of higher education? There is a serious need for culture change. </p>
<p>On the Rugby Road song, I attended late 70’s through much of the 80’s, undergrad and grad. I knew the song pretty well. I’d guess most folks who attended any sporting events would recognize the tune, as well as others that they may not know the words to-- “Glory glory to Virginia”, for example, or whatever the name was. The pep band played them continuously. But I’ve seen posts from TONS of alums who don’t know the song.</p>
<p>As for the words: " I think we need another drink" was almost universally known and used at football games. The actual verses? I assumed most people knew the first verse, which was primarily “let’s drink”. There were subsequent harmless rival-specific verses (particularly about Maryland and Carolina) that the odd person might know and trot out during that specific game.</p>
<p>Now, getting to the rape-y verses: I knew of the Mary Wash/RMWC verse, and it was sometimes discussed among my friends. We (independents during the coed era) viewed it as a purely idiotic fake-machismo vestige of the single-sex period. No guys I knew had ANY interest in nearby womens’ colleges-- there were plenty of interesting women at the U. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear that there was still some resonance at the fraternities, but in the general population verses like that were archaic, long-dead, mostly unknown relics.</p>
<p>So my point is that you can’t use “Rugby Road” as an indication of continuous, pervasive support for sexual assault at the U. It IS an indication of a possibly pervasive, warped attitude pre-coeducation.</p>
<p>Two things occur to me as I write this:
The fraternities are the main continuity we have with the old male-only University. I’m not advocating eliminating fraternities, but I would not weep if they were gone.
I shudder to think what would be found if there were any serious investigation into sexual assaults at women’s colleges ANYWHERE in America in the 60’s though 80’s.</p>
<p>That was a very well written article. I would like to add that women need to understand the fraternity system as well. Important to note is her mention of the fact that it is a very small fraction of criminals participating in sexual assault which seems true based on what I have read. First year women need to understand that the boys who join fraternities are just as disgusted by it as the women are, and that reporting it is what everyone wants, they do not want a rapist in their midst. </p>
<p>That was a fantastic article. I had never thought of deferred rush as being a bad thing. But now I see how it, combined with other factors, can make young women especially vulnerable. </p>
<p>"…the boys who join fraternities are just as disgusted by it as the women are."</p>
<p>This does seem to be true when they join. </p>
<p>Apparently, there is something about the fraternity process or structure itself that changes them into people who are 300% more likely to rape and who are accessories to crimes, that their fraternity brothers commit, and who are unwilling to report criminal activity.</p>
<p>“Apparently, there is something about the fraternity process or structure itself that changes them into people who are 300% more likely to rape and who are accessories to crimes, that their fraternity brothers commit, and who are unwilling to report criminal activity.”</p>
<p>Where does that statistic come from? If you are going to post it which disparages young men it would be great if you could post the source or support for it.</p>
<p>Mama, I couldn’t see anything in that link other than the abstract. And really, your source (totalsororitymove.com–hardly impartial) was the only place I saw references to frat boys being less “rapey” (their term) than others in the same demographic.</p>
<p>There are lots of sources supporting the claim about the connection between fraternity membership and sexual violence. Here’s one.</p>
<p>You need to access the study they cite in the article, I am not saying that web site is the source. In fact the study supports the existence of Hypermasculinity and traditional gender roles etc, but concludes that it doesn’t result in increased rapes by men with those traits. There are tons of studies out there, you can always find a study to support what you want it to support. That was my point in posting that link. </p>
<p>The biggest difference of opinion here is that I believe that it is possible that a rapist could be a fraternity member, an athlete, or the quiet non drinker who lives down the hall. I feel what others are trying to assert here is that fraternities are creating them, that fraternities in general take young men who were not rapists and turn them into rapists. This I do not agree with. </p>
<p>Gang rapes are not the normal or the majority of sexual assault reports campuses are dealing with. I believe I have seen stats on here that cite that a very small percentage of the population are rapists, and that they end up being repeat offenders which is why the number of rapists are smaller than the number of sexual assaults happening.</p>
<p>The biggest problem here is not that, for arguments sake, that fraternities create rapists, it is that these boys become really close, really good friends. And the majority of sexual assault complaints are between two people, still unacceptable but end up being a he said she said situation. This I believe results in the perpetrators friends unwittingly supporting the rapist. These innocent young men do this because it is human nature to support your friend, believe your friends side of the story. No one wants to believe they made a bad choice in a friend. It is not that these boys think that rape is okay. </p>
<p>I believe that education is the solution to this problem. Young men and women need to be awakened to help weed out the bad apples and the girls need to feel confident to report the situation to help this happen. I believe this is already happening but much more work is necessary. For example what “Jackies” friends thought about the greek system just a mere two years ago is absurd. To think that the greek system as a whole, that men as a whole on campus would exclude them because they reported/or helped report a gang rape is in my opinion just crazy. What needs to change is that they thought this to be true. There was a great article in the Cav Daily discussing this exact topic,the mystique of the Greek system. </p>
<p>And I do believe that there has to be punishments. I support that wholeheartedly but I am not concerned with the extent of punishments in place right now. Empowering people to report/prosecute is step one. While I agree it is odd that there hasn’t been any expulsions does anyone think that rapists are thinking “no big deal I won’t be expelled I will just be suspended for two years”. What they are thinking is they will not be reported. This has to change. </p>
<p>Mamalumper, did you read either of the studies I cited? Or do you just not want to believe that it could be true that fraternity membership can breed a culture in which sexual assault is more likely? Again, “totalsororitymove” and one study from Tulane does not offset decades of research that supports the opposite conclusion.</p>
<p>I did read your studies Sally, in fact the first one has only that one line which you reposted here that even mentions fraternities. The second one talked more about the myths than anything else. </p>
<p>And you are correct, I do not want to believe that fraternity membership “breeds” rapists. As I have mentioned in other posts my son was a member of a fraternity at UVA. It was an amazing experience for him and he and his brothers are as disgusted as you are by the RS article and want to be part of the solution. In fact they may be more upset than you are. Not only are they disgusted by the event they are also upset by what that group of perpetrators did to disparage the organization they value. All agree they have no tolerance for it. </p>
<p>Do you have any first hand knowledge of fraternities? </p>
<p>Of course I do, Mamalumper. I was in the Greek system at my school. And I know plenty of kids who are now.</p>
<p>Anyway, the point is–it doesn’t matter what your or my personal experience with fraternities might be. DECADES of research have made the connection between certain male-dominated environments (including but not limited to fraternities) and the propensity for sexual assault of women.</p>
<p>My children attend two other top ranked national universities.They report hearing stories all of the time about sexual aggression on their campuses. They also report seeing girls walking around their campuses in tears because they weren’t accepted by the sororities they wanted to join. So much of the process seems to be humiliating and focused on drunken parties dedicated to attracting as many girls as possible.Yes, plenty of students avoid the Greek system and have terrific social lives. But the fact remains so many feel they cannot be popular or cool without joining. It’s all so disheartening, to say the least.</p>
<p>If my children say that “everyone” at their schools [not UVA] knows that certain fraternities on campus have terrible reputations due to what happens to girls at their parties, how can administrators not know?</p>
<p>I’m not sure, based upon a variety of comments that I’ve read on CC (not just this thread) that I agree with Ms. Erdely’s assertion that everyone understands the story is being told from Jackie’s POV. If any portion of her story is discredited, however, I’m sure UVA will be once again accused of sweeping things under the rug. </p>