<p>To be clear I’m not saying at all that I don’t buy it. I buy it. I just don’t buy that’s it’s a sound piece of journalism. And, I really see it as more of a lesson in what not to do all around so finding issues doesn’t feel like victim-blaming since we have no idea who these people are or if they exist or if this story happened as told which some of them now say it didn’t exactly, reportedly. Anyway, I suspect something happened but the details do matter here since there are some pretty serious allegations flying around. In any case, no on-the-record sources on a sensationalistic story reported as fact is not good and I don’t like the idea that the public is smart enough to figure out the allegedly part. They’re definitely not. </p>
<p>The biggest shame here is that if this story turns out to be fiction it sets back the whole dialog. Even if something happened to Jackie but the whole gang rape story was added for effect it will end up poisoning the minds of the men and women who wanted to be part of a solution. They will now always question the validity of the sexual assault stories they hear. </p>
<p>I have not been in agreement with any of the disparaging remarks on this blog generalizing about the fraternities, Dean Eramo or UVa as a whole. That is clear from my many posts. But I was in support of education for everyone about the issue. If this story turns out to have holes in it, (Which will probably end up happening) it will do so much more damage to any positive change.</p>
<p>If it turns out to be fiction, it supports everything the Dean said and supports why there is NOT only one punishment, expulsion. </p>
<p>I know in activism people believe that the end justifies the means but when you get caught it really undermines everything. And why don’t they see that they are victimizing others in there quest for so called justice.</p>
<p>The story is so horrific it is difficult to believe but UVA or any U subject to independent review of sexual assault cases is sure to find more sad stories, more women reporting abuse, and more bad news.<br>
*UVA will need to do more than change a few policies and procedures.
*If true, how does the culture change entering students with glowing letters about their character and integrity into people capable of doing this to another person?
*If true, what needs to be done to change this culture?
*Sexual assaults also occur at universities with residential housing, with independent students, and with dinner clubs.
- Why are the frat boys so quiet? I’m sure most of the 3rd and 4th year brothers heard something about what happened that night. They know who Drew, blanket and armpit are. Will they talk or stay quiet or talk?
*Other universities will be watching to adjust their policies as well. - No university can survive this branding so major changes need to occur. Tiger Moms with high achieving kids aren’t going to put up with this and they aren’t going to send their sons and daughters there if major changes don’t occur. </p>
<p>So now it is okay if the story is not true because any of the eighty some universities being examined is sure to have sexual assault? </p>
<p>The ends never justify the means. The police need to find out if this story is true. If the story is not true then whoever made up the fiction needs to be prosecuted in my opinion. </p>
<p>President Sullivan is meeting with students today at noon. The meeting is available on livestream for those who are interested. </p>
<p><a href=“Sullivan to Meet With Students; Livestream Available | UVA Today”>http://news.virginia.edu/content/sullivan-meet-students-livestream-available</a></p>
<p>“The biggest shame here is that if this story turns out to be fiction it sets back the whole dialog. Even if something happened to Jackie but the whole gang rape story was added for effect it will end up poisoning the minds of the men and women who wanted to be part of a solution. They will now always question the validity of the sexual assault stories they hear.”</p>
<p>The thing is that this is not about one incident. We may never know for sure about any one incident. This is a national problem. </p>
<p>It is not reasonable to assume that if one case isn’t true then they all aren’t true, any more than it is reasonable to assume that, if it is true, then all accused are guilty.</p>
<p>Much2learn I agree with you, however you cannot dispute that it is stories like this, IF proven exaggerated or false is was causes many to not be believed. And it is important to remember all that has transpired since that article was written and what it caused:</p>
<ul>
<li>Calls for resignations of administrators at UVA
-Calls for a disbanding of the “fraternity gangs”
-Bricks were thrown through a window at the accused fraternity house (Even though the alleged perpetrators have most likely graduated)
-That home was also spray painted
-Calls for people not to let their children apply or attend UVA</li>
</ul>
<p>The list goes on… The issue is of course important, but so is the truth. And IF this turns out to not be it is really going to derail whatever original purpose it had intended. </p>
<p>I still have not seen any credible source discount the validity of Jackie’s story. Nor has anyone offered a reason why she would tell her story to the media if it wasn’t true. Surely the former “friends” who were with her that night could come out and dispute it, as could any of the fraternity brothers whose identities could be figured out.</p>
<p>It is not reasonable to assume that if one case isn’t true then they all aren’t true, any more than it is reasonable to assume that, if it is true, then all accused are guilty.</p>
<p>Yeah, no-one is assuming that. I really don’t understand why so many people these days seem to be under the false impression that specifics are irrelevant. Oh yeah, those were all lies but it’s still a problem is not a winning argument.</p>
<p>No one is saying “specifics are irrelevant.” If anything the RS article had an abundance of specifics that would have been hard to make up.</p>
<p>I have to say, it’s interesting how your position changes from thread to thread, marie. You seem totally fine with lack of specifics in the Ferguson case (i.e., fingerprints on the weapon, “injuries” invisible to the naked eye, etc.). </p>
<p>“If it turns out to be fiction, it supports everything the Dean said”</p>
<p>Okay, I understand that you are very pro fraternity. That is fine. But how can you possibly defend the argument that cheating on a quiz warrants expulsion, while rape does not, even if the student admits to it?</p>
<p>That reasoning is what is problematic to me, not that rapes occur at UVA, as they do elsewhere, but how it has been handled. I can’t see this as being even a conservative or liberal issue, just a common sense issue.</p>
<p>The RS article has an abundance of specifics that may or may not be true. That’s the problem. There are piles of evidence in the other case, physical and witness testimony. Here we don’t know fact from fiction and everyone is anonymous. And. it’s impossible to prove anything because it’s a two year old story. Nothing is hard to make up and it could all be true. But, it’s not journalism. The only correlation I do see with the other case is the willingness to overlook facts that don’t fit for the greater good. But, I agree with those who think this is a losing strategy with the potential to hurt a lot of innocent people and ultimately do nothing positive for the cause. It does sell magazines, though.</p>
<p>I don’t think I have ever posted that I agree with only expulsion as a punishment for violation of the honor code.</p>
<p>I absolutely agree that this is an issue everywhere that deserves attention. What I also believe is that there are varying circumstances, varying desires by the victims, and other very complicated issues that are not my field of expertise.</p>
<p>I think that a one punishment fits all for ANY crime does not make sense. </p>
<p>And I think that this article (RS) has many people jumping to judgement. I have said repeatedly it should be investigated, but I am sorry if people do not agree with that and feel that if it is written it must be true, no investigation necessary. </p>
<p>The Dean said a lot in the interview which I believe I heard included but was not limited to, that she is not sure about the honor code policies herself and that she has to be careful to not stomp on the accused rights etc. So that was the point of my comment above. </p>
<p><a href=“Important University of Virginia Messages Regarding Sexual Assault | UVA Today”>Important University of Virginia Messages Regarding Sexual Assault | UVA Today;
<p>For anyone who would like to read President Sullivan’s address to the students today. </p>
<p>“Why are the frat boys so quiet? I’m sure most of the 3rd and 4th year brothers heard something about what happened that night. They know who Drew, blanket and armpit are. Will they talk or stay quiet or talk”</p>
<p>They have received threats. The brothers who live in the house this year have had to evacuate for security reasons and stay with friends until they could hire enough security guards. I have talked to a 4th year member of Phi Psi. They are more eager than anybody else to find the truth and the identities of those who committed this crime. They have absolutely NO CLUE whatsoever who the perps could be. The first they heard of this was when they were told about the article a couple days before it was published. They’ve even conducted their own investigation of which frat member may have been a lifeguard when the incident happened and they couldn’t find the name of any former or present brother on the list. They too find many holes in the story.</p>
<p>Mamalumper wrote in post #223:“I don’t think I have ever posted that I agree with only expulsion as a punishment for violation of the honor code.” </p>
<p>Au contraire mon ami…</p>
<p>Mamalumper wrote in post #123 in reference to the Dean Eramo interview in which the Dean had no problem with expulsion not being an option for rape perpetrators: “I watched the interview with Dean Eramo in its entirety. There was not one thing wrong with her responses in my opinion.”</p>
<p>How is that post saying I support expulsion for all honor violations?? I am simply saying I didn’t think there was anything wrong with her responses to the interviewer. She answered honestly and completely. Really dadof1 you are reaching…</p>
<p>@guillaume, I’m eager also to find out the truth about these allegations. There is so much in the article that seems like it should be easily verifiable so I do wonder why we’re not hearing anything new about the status of the investigation. Anybody possibly involved does need to be prosecuted . I hope this is resolved soon .</p>
<p>I heard a story on NPR tonight that included Sullivan’s address. She is handling this really well and not making excuses or questioning the veracity of Jackie’s story. She seems to get that the university has a problem and wants to take a leadership role going forward. Students seem encouraged. If I were a prospective UVa parent I’d feel cautiously optimistic now.</p>
<p>UVa was thrust into the spotlight on this important issue because of the author’s choice to focus on UVa. But now we do have a chance to take a leadership role going forward. That is the good news in all of this.</p>