Rose Hulman vs RPI vs WashU for CS

College Majors Math/Computer Science Majors
1

My D is choosing between these 3. Cost is about the same, so that’s not a consideration.

Here are my current (vague) impressions of the 3. And I’m sure I have biases, so don’t take any of this as fact.

RHIT:

DD did a summer program there and loved it. Great fit for her socially. Nerdy goofy is how I describe it. Classwork seems to be hard, but not work-all-the-time super-hard. No grad school, and profs are promoted / fired based on their teaching skills. So maybe they’re on average good - but who knows. Classes seem to be universally small I think. (Am I remembering correctly that the “giant” common freshman classes there have like 70 kids?)

The big con is (of course) its location. Also, we’re Jewish, so she’d be like the only one there? :slight_smile: Not sure how much that matters.

RPI:
I think this has the best reputation for CS among the 3, though obviously that’s debatable. I think it has the biggest / most varied CS department. With its grad school, there should be a decent amount of research opportunities. Are there weeding out classes here? My guess is that the coursework here is a bit harder / time consuming than Rose, but not sure.

The biggest concern is: jocks, frats, and partying. She dislikes all of those. Obviously those elements are at many/all schools, and obviously it’s not 100% at RPI, but I wonder if it will be enough that it will make it less good of a social fit for her.

WashU:
Biggest school, only one with liberal arts majors. Much more balanced male/female ratio (not sure if DD likes that or dislikes that). My impression (again, not really sure) is that this is a “gentlemen’s B” kindof college, meaning they don’t want you to get bad grades, and maybe the coursework is the lightest of the 3. I think the curriculum is the most flexible. Is this the place where you don’t even declare your major until the end of sophomore year?

Some cons: the 2 intro to CS classes have no lectures. You watch everything on video, then have labs. This seems not-good to me. Even a 400-level CS class that I sat in on had like 200 kids in it. It was in a big lecture hall, and everyone seemed asleep. Not very dynamic. Of course that was just one class. But I feel like in general the classes are not-small.

As far as reputation goes, my guess is that they’re all in the same ballpark.

Any comment / observations / corrections?

2

I would eliminate WashU right now - that is NOT a good setup for learning CS, particularly to start. If anything, reversed would be better even. There’s no sense in going to school to do what you could do at home with EdX or coursera. Do you have any other non-tech school options in play? I think that part is worth considering, but that CS at WashU does not sound good at all.

Between RHIT and RPI, they are similar enough that there isn’t really a bad choice here. RHIT sounds better socially, but if you are going out of the midwest, RPI will likely have better connections. RPI certainly will be more time consuming from what I know from coworkers, family, and other posters here. In general, the academic level is a big step up in intensity. I don’t think that means it’s best for everyone, either, just noting/confirming.

As far as location goes, Troy is very dead too, so I think that’s a wash in terms of day to day life to me.

From your posts in general, it sounds like you are very much leaning RHIT, and your daughter loved it at the time, but hasn’t really shown signs of leaning towards it as much as you have. This is some speculation so correct me if I’m wrong. Between the two, since they are so comparable, I would try to completely leave it on her as much as possible (you may already be doing that and not trying to backseat parent here, but trying to add a perspective from a student selection side). Point being, it comes down to her at this point, not any small factor anyone could really bring up here in my opinion. At least between those two.

3

RPI looks like the best of the bunch. I think it’s a big enough school where she’ll find like minded serious students to hang out with, but small enough to be able to work with professors on research.

WashU would be my second choice. While I prefer there be a professor giving lectures in person, I’m sure the classes break down into recitations, and few people ask questions during lectures anyway, so really, your just watching a show. The ability to stop and rewind is actually quite nice. LOL, when I was at MIT, I had a computer architecture lecture class that met in a big room with poor ventilation right after lunch. I remember waking up during lecture and looking down my row and seeing the whole row asleep.

Because computer science is a field where a PhD can make a huge difference in earnings, I would choose a research university over a teaching university that will prepare one for graduate school should one want to go that direction. They all prepare for jobs, so that’s not an issue if she wants to leave with a BS. But there are a lot of exciting things going on at the cutting edge, and I don’t think a teaching university can possible keep up with that. RHIT is really focused on preparing for current jobs, much less for research.

4

Have you gone to revisit days yet? You need a fresh impression with only these 3 in mind.

@ClassicRockerDad “Because computer science is a field where a PhD can make a huge difference in earnings”

Really? This is the first I ever heard of that. On CC I’ve read the exact opposite. Can you elaborate?

5

Tech companies need to produce research that will provide a large return on equity in order for high flying tech companies to justify their high valuations. As a result, during booms, and we’re in one, a huge amount of money is being spent on CS research in hot fields like data science, machine learning, search, natural language, systems,parallel computing, etc. PhDs in these areas are getting crazy offers. We know because I work in government research and we’re completely priced out of the market for talent in some areas.

In the bust times that occurred several years ago, when inflation was so low, and raises were low to non-existent, getting a PhD could grow ones salary more than enough to compensate for years spent outside the work force, since graduate students still earned a stipend at a lower tax rate and could earn good money during the summers. In other words, after taxes, you give up 40-60% of your $70-80K salary for 5 years, but your return 5 years later making $120K-$150K, with future raises compounding on a much higher number.

It’s not always a win, but it’s certainly a win for a non-trivial crowd. Furthermore, the opportunity to do research on the cutting-edge is exciting in it’s own right.

Even if one doesn’t go the PhD route, working on the cutting edge of research can allow a student to get involved with hot startups which could be very lucrative right out of a BS. I often hire recent grads who plan to go to grad school in a few years and want to beef up their application with industrial research. Going to a school where the focus is “get a job” can be limiting.

6

@PengsPhils - yes, I’m a little biased towards Rose because I’m confident she will thrive there. So it’s definitely “good enough”. But I could certainly imagine she could thrive in other places too. Not sure if there’s actually more risk, or if I don’t know the schools well enough.

7

@ClassicRockerDad - speaking as someone who was in the CS PhD programs of both MIT and Cal - and dropped out of both :open_mouth: - I’m a bit torn. Even though I could have gotten a PhD, it was definitely not the right thing for me at that point in my life (and probably ever). So I don’t want her to make decisions based on what’s best for earnings, but rather I hope she can just follow her passion (and still make a good living).

TBH - I don’t even know if she’s going to stick with CS. I knew I was going to do CS since I was 13 yo, and I never had any doubt. She decided when she was in the middle of 11th grade - and I don’t think she’s anywhere near certain. She certainly has a lot to learn. She’s not the kind of kid who’s going to go into a school and then find a prof to do research with. Which is one reason I’m partial to whichever place I think will teach her the most. And I think (hope?) that even at Rose, if she excels, she will have a great chance for grad school.

8

I’d like to address a few things as a current RPI student studying Computer Engineering seeking a second degree in Computer Science.

Jocks/frats - I find this very funny actually lol… RPI is a nerd school. I’m in a fraternity and I’d say that we all classify ourselves as ‘nerds’ for sure. If your daughter is concerned about that, please make sure she knows she shouldn’t be. Rensselaer is a very diverse school and you will have a very small minority that behave in the sense you’re thinking of, but besides that even the sports players and members of Greek Life are very much not crazy party people. I’d say we’re all functional students. If we were ‘wild’ we’d all fail out and our fraternity would be kicked off campus. To learn more about student life go to Wikipedia and look at the student life and first year experience sections or check out the RPI union website. There’s a bustling social scene, regardless of popular belief among people outside the university, even if you don’t get involved in the party scene.

Department - I got a co-op first semester of freshman year with a huge firm and only a 3.0 gpa… they’re paying me 20k for 6 months and offering a signing bonus when I graduate. RPI’s CS department has great career placement and the department has so many opportunities for incoming students. I’d say without a doubt that RPI is probably the best school on this list (although I’m incredibly biased). There are many dozens of courses offered each semester in CS. In terms of weeding out, there isn’t a course per say but Data Structures is a course many students fail and have to retake. RPI expects you to be able to take this first or second second freshman year while most other schools don’t make their students until sophomore or junior year. I felt well equipped though after taking CS101 for the challenge. Also: the average starting salary for CS majors is 94k… the ROI is definitely the best you’ll get.

Liberal arts- we have an entire college for liberal arts lol. I’m currently minoring in Media Theory. Not very sure where the idea came from that we didn’t have liberal arts majors. They only make up like 8% of the school though.

Retention- don’t be too afraid your daughter can’t do it. They prepare you well if you start in the beginning in Intro courses. Our freshman retention rate is 94%-96% each year for a reason. They wouldn’t have admitted her if they didn’t feel she would be able to handle the work as a rule of thumb. She can also easily switch majors if anything. ITWS or engineering is usually where kids transfer between if they don’t like CS, and they graduate and do just fine. There are also other options (business, medicine, law, etc.) to name a few.

9

Also graduate school: get over a 3.0 at RPI and you’ll be admitted to the coterminal program and get your masters in 5 years for the cost of only one additional year of undergraduate study, rather than graduate which is ridiculously expensive at private institutions.

In terms of Roseman Hull, I’m not bunking the school but it’s very much unknown amongst most people even in industry. I’d say most people that have gone to college know about RPI and definitely the vast majority (like 99%) in industry. I’ve never gone to a job interview where the RPI name brand wasn’t recognized, even at small firms.

10

Thanks for the input @joedoe ! And apologies for any negative tone in various places of my post… To be clear, I’m not trying to belittle anyone or any school. I’ve stated various things that might concern me specifically about fit for my daughter, and I’m happy to hear where I’m wrong.

For Rose Hulman, I go back and forth. I guess I should have mentioned as a con that it’s the least well known, though that’s pretty obvious. IMO neighbors / friends have never heard of it, but people in the field have, and have a good opinion of it. USWNR equates it with / says it’s better than Harvey Mudd - which seems kindof crazy to me - but it at least shows that it has some respect.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-no-doctorate
Their career fairs seem quite respectable. But that’s something I should try to check out (to the best of my ability).

11

Check the facts at the following website. Job placement, graduate school placement and salaries are all given by the career placement office at Rose Hulman. The environment can make a difference to the student who must live the experience. It appears from this data that Computer Science and Computer Engineering graduates at Rose Hulman are doing very well in every respect. It does appear that the CS majors may be electing high paying jobs over graduate school.

I was not able to find RPI data on their website. See if you can find reliable data. Rose Hulman has a user friendly website. For Rose Hulman: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/offices-and-services/career-services/recruitment-employment-statistics.aspx.

Quality does not always come in quantity. Neither one size nor one environment fits all.

12

Overall, to non-CS people, Washington University has the biggest rep among these three schools. It might not be the CS hotspot that RH and RPI are, but if she changes her mind, she is probably in (academically) the best spot, as WashU offers many excellent programs spanning the gamut from STEM to the soft(er) sciences to the humanities. It’s a great all-around college, not just a STEM school.

13

@retiredfarmer https://www.rpi.edu/dept/cdc/Annual%20Report%202015.pdf

The website does suck, they’re redoing everything for next fall. There’s the employment/graduate report though. Agreed that WashU’s rep is better outside of CS where the others are lacking. Have to awknowledge though that RPI’s humanities programs are pretty solid, but they’re pretty STEM oriented. Also agree one size doesn’t fit all. Georgia Tech is a much larger school, for example, than RPI but is higher ranked. Still happy I chose RPI.

14

As a recent Rose grad I’ll throw my two cents in.

@thshadow, regarding graduate school I don’t think Rose-Hulman will be limiting. Although Rose doesn’t have a doctoral program and the expanse of cutting-edge research that it brings, undergraduates play a big role in the research that Rose does do and that can be a great springboard to PhD programs. Rose graduates probably don’t go to graduate school in the same numbers as some other schools, but I think that’s more of a function of student interest than opportunity; it doesn’t limit any individual student. Students go from Rose to great grad programs every year - a guy I know finished up his BS and MS from Rose and is now doing a PhD at one of the top electromagnetics schools in the world. Rose can have some surprisingly good and accessible opportunities: a visiting alumni commented about how nice our electromagentics lab was in comparison to his at GT - they had to rent out expensive equipment that we had in-house.

I won’t disagree that Rose-Hulman is not well-known publicly, especially outside of the midwest, but in engineering I haven’t had issues with Rose being “very much unknown”. Coming out of Rose I had job opportunities with multiple companies outside of the midwest who seemed to value a Rose-Hulman education, and I was accepted to good grad programs that didn’t balk at my background. Rose’s alumni base is much smaller than most schools so it’s true that many people aren’t familiar with it, and I’m sure you’ll find companies that don’t know about Rose, but I think [URL=http://www.rose-hulman.edu/media/1873284/2016-fall-cf-attendees.pdf]this[/URL] list of companies at the Fall career fair shows that Rose is known and respected in industry (in addition to thelinks @retiredfarmer posted before).

Just to echo what some others have said, Rose is not without its cons of course. It doesn’t have the broad public name-brand that WashU and RPI have (this could be important to you personally, or may be important to you if you end up wanting to move outside of STEM); the location can be a downside for some, and the lack of non-technical majors can be restrictive if you want to have a broader curriculum or end up transferring out of STEM. I loved the small size of Rose and the undergraduate-focus, but it’s undeniable that there is a broader range of research opportunities at other schools.

I know when I was looking at schools RHIT and RPI were more on my radar than WashU as a student who knew I wanted to do EECS in a STEM-focused environment, but all three are great options. Purely for reputation I would agree that they’re all in the same ballpark; for engineering my mind would give a slight edge to RPI and RHIT because of their focus, but none of the three would hold anyone back.

15

I should also point out that @joedoe 's post here:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/rensselaer-polytechnic-institute/1958991-a-freshmans-guide-to-rpi.html
is very helpful. (In fact, I had asked some of these same questions there a couple of months ago, and I’m embarrassed to say I had forgotten a lot of his responses.)

16

My D’s at RPI - though in engineering, not CS (but has close friends that are in CS). A few comments:

  • When looking for engineering schools, we didn't consider RHIT as it seemed too small and isolated (though it otherwise sounds pretty good). My D didn't want to go to a huge school either. RPI has been just about the right size for her and she's happy there.
  • Jocks/frats: My D is NOT a party person at all, and that's not an issue at RPI. She only ever went to a frat party once to accompany a friend. She has a great group of equally nerdy friends. She says the student body there is very diverse and is what she likes most about RPI. Also the student body seems to generally be tolerant and cooperative rather than competitive.
  • CS weed-out classes: Data Structures is known as the weed-out class. It's tough. My D decided not to dual major in CS for the sole reason that she didn't want to take that class. However, it's not insurmountable, and most everyone does pass it, and I'm sure your daughter will find a group of friends to help her along (as my D found in her "hurdle" classes).
  • Someone mentioned co-term already. That's a nice option especially if you're getting good grants from RPI. Bear in mind that getting a 3.0 GPA isn't as easy at RPI as it might be in other schools.

– WashU has more of an overall reputation as an “elite” school, but it’s also more of a “rich kids” school (near the top of the list of average income of attendees – check out the NY Times report). That may or may not be an issue.

17

FYI, I rotate between my favorite schools based on which student posts most recently… :slight_smile:

18

I figured I’d update this thread - even though this is much more about personal preferences than any kind of universal judgments. We have somewhat tentatively narrowed it down to WashU vs Rose Hulman. My wife feels very strongly that college is about much more than just the education. She doesn’t want her to go to either Rose or RPI - she thinks they are too homogeneous / nerdy. So she strongly wants WashU. Me and DD still think Rose might be a great fit. No one has any strong a priori feelings for RPI, and we just want to visit 2 schools - so we’re currently planning to take one last visit to WashU and Rose.

My current feelings about WashU is that there are lots of great opportunities - a pretty decent sized CS faculty doing interesting research - and lots of flexibility. (Like 1/4 of your credits required for a CS BS are totally unrestricted.) But this means that you get out what you put in. Much like that intro to CS class - you will have to be self-motivated, find profs to do research with, etc. I feel like at least some of the classes you take won’t be too hard, and so the students there have lives, opportunities for varied social activities, etc.

For Rose, I think they push you a lot more. Which is a great way to get the most out of each student. And lots of personal attention, as well as a collaborative environment. (Apparently very collaborative at WashU too of course.) At Rose, I think there’s less flexibility, wrt degree requirements. The kids possibly have to work very hard, maybe are less naturally social, and so it’s probably less like a “normal” college experience. Which can be a plus or a minus, depending on the kid. Or depending on the parent… :slight_smile:

19

@thshadow thanks for the update. I think your analysis and comparison of the schools is right on, and I definitely see where your wife is coming from concerning Rose. If it helps at all, one thing that is interesting about the social environment at Rose is that for some students the smaller and more focused environment can actually result in a more diverse college experience: a student that feels at home at Rose may be more inclined to join clubs, participate in sports, or do student government than they would at larger schools. If you want to be a part of the theater community at Rose you won’t be “competing” with theater majors for positions, nor playing alongside the music major in the orchestra or running against the polisci major for class president; for some students that’s the difference between having a wider variety of extra curriculars and just being intimidated back into your comfort zone of homework and engineering projects. My roommate for three years was a two-sport athlete for Rose, which I’m sure was made easier by the fact that every other student on the team had similar interests, majors, and workloads. I can’t argue that Rose will be more homogeneous and nerdy compared to most other schools, but I’d contend that it doesn’t necessarily result in a less enriching or broadening college experience. It can go both ways - a lot depends on the student of course.

20

My child is quietly packing up and leaving RHIT at the quarter end. We chose Rose because we understood it was a a small and nurturing school. At drop off we were surprised when we heard a speaker say that sometimes your child will feel like the work is like a fire hose coming at them. Nothing nurturing about that. Also, fielding many complaints that there is not much to do in Terre Haute. Our family attends a lot of live theater and art museums and this is just non-existent save a couple of student shows. Curiously, Rose is really in to their sports, the “jocks” do seem to get some special treatment. There does seem to be a fair amount of partying going on but this is not of interest to my charge. Personally, I don’t understand how the kids can party there and stay on top of their studies. I have heard good things about RPI but we didn’t visit. Wash U has big name recognition. Also look at getting to and fro the school. We thought there would be more shuttles to OHare but that is only at Christmas. Flying out of Indy is a pain in my opinion. Good luck to your daughter and her choice.