Russia's not the West, or even "European"

College Confidential Community
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<p>While some may classify Russia and Russians as historically European and Western based on shallow racism (uh, Dmitri looks like a white guy, so he must be European and Western, cuz that's all that matters: looks), Russia is quite a unique identity onto its own. </p>

<p>1) Russia went through a Westernization process, just like Turkey, Japan, Egypt, etc.</p>

<p>Russia pretty much idolized the French and ripped off everything. The majority of "respectable" Russian writers wrote in French, not Russian, at least until Gogol came along or something. To speak French was to be civilized, while Russian was for the ignorant serfs. The building of St. Petersburg was an attempt by Tsar Peter to uproot his country from its Russian roots and become more Western European.</p>

<p>2) Russia never went through the definitive Western European experiences, such as the Renaissance and the Age of Exploration</p>

<p>Russia never participated in the Renaissance, a time when Western Europeans decided to play historical revisionism and claim they were the pure successors of the Greeks and Romans. Russia never had overseas colonies in Africa and Asia, though they did have Alaska for awhile. Their empire was of the old model, in that it was contiguous.</p>

<p>3) Russia, in the 20th century, has frequently butted heads with the West</p>

<p>The Soviet Union was the great bogeyman of the West.</p>

<hr>

<p>Just pointing this out because Russia, like the Ottoman Empire or Japan, existed uniquely independent from Western influences until a certain point in time. The difference amongst Russia, Ottoman Empire, and Japan, of course, is that Russians are white, whereas Ottomans were dark-skinned Turks and the Japanese were Asians. If anybody claims that Russia has a right to claim its place as a Western, European historical identity, and deny the same to the Ottoman Empire or Japan, solely on the basis of looking white, then I will call you a stupid racist who can't shake off his great great great grandfather's uber-conservative outlook on the world.</p>

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<p>I realize this is the cafe, but what prompted this rather random post?</p>

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<p>You know, Europe does not consist solely of its Western part.
Russia is located in Europe. It was a part of Europe because it shared the same Christian culture. That factor was something that united Europe for a long time. Russia played a huge role in European affairs and like you said yourself, adopted much of European culture.
Ottoman Turks were Muslim and therefore were never considered to be European. And yeah, white does idenitify ethnic Europeans. I'm sorry but you just can't deny that.</p>

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<p>^ Tis true, 'tis true.</p>

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<p>Not all Ottomons were dark-skinned Muslims. For a long time, the Ottomon Turks controlled what is now the Balkan Peninsula. That area consists of many different ethnic groups including the Greeks. Like the Ottomons, the Russians controlled vast areas of territory that included many different ethnic groups. There are and have been white Russians, dark Russians, Jewish Russians, Muslim Russians, and Christian Muslims. Granted, many Russians were white but certainly not all of them. If you go take a look at The World Was Going Our Way from the Mitrokhin archives then you will see a reference to a Communist Jihad used by the Bolsheviks to draw the Muslims from the Caucasus region into a common understanding with the Communists. My point is that Russians were not European because they were white and the Ottomons were not Middle Eastern because they were dark. They were who they were because of where they traced their roots and because of how the adapted to the cultural challenges that were presented to them throughout their respective histories.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Christian Muslims

[/quote]

Interesting. ;)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
You know, Europe does not consist solely of its Western part.
Russia is located in Europe. It was a part of Europe because it shared the same Christian culture. That factor was something that united Europe for a long time. Russia played a huge role in European affairs and like you said yourself, adopted much of European culture.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wrong. Russia was and is of the Orthodox Church, which was seen as the enemy by the Latin/Catholic Church. Ever hear of the Great Schism? West and East Roman were at each other's throats until the Ottomans captured Constantinople. Then the papacy decided that erroneous (Orthodox) Christians were at least better than Muslims.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ottoman Turks were Muslim and therefore were never considered to be European. And yeah, white does idenitify ethnic Europeans. I'm sorry but you just can't deny that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Many Eastern Europeans are Muslim as well. Are they not European? I had a Bosnian friend back in elementary school, and he was a devout Muslim, railing against the West's (America, mostly) policies in the Middle East. And Turks come in all different shades. There are probably many Turks who are more "European" than Spaniards, Italians, and Greeks. </p>

<p>Of course I know that in ethnic terms, Russians are European (at least the "mainstream" ones). But I'm referring to European and Western in historical/political terms. In that sense, Russia's just as foreign to them as Turkey or Japan. However, Russia kind of resembles the facial features of the Western Europeans. I just wanted to find out who was shallow and stupid enough to then classify Russia as a historically Western power based on contemporary and idiotic standards of race.</p>

<p>What gets my goat is the notion that as long as you look a certain way, no matter how culturally or religiously different you are from the West, you can always fit in. However, if you look different (by contemporary standards of racial differences), you'll always be copying the West and indebted to the West.</p>

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<p>I think that ein is referring to the fact that all denomenations of Christianity fall under the umbrella of Jesus Christ. Despite the doctrinal differences between the two, the Russian Orthodox are still Christian. However, the Russians don't really owe Western Europe for that aspect of their culture. Byzantines more like it. Even their Christianity stems from the Greek Orthodox making it a western religion. Btw I meant to put Christian Russians my bad.</p>

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<p>nbachris2788, don't teach me Russian history - I'm from Eastern Europe.
Bosniaks are Slavic people, and even though some of them are Muslim, they still have ethnic roots that are European.</p>

<p>What I was trying to say is that Russia might not be a Western nation in the same context that France would be, but it still has ties with Western culture that go back further and are more extensive than those of Turkey or Japan. Who would you say are more culturally related to Swedes, Germans and Poles? Russians, Turks or Japs? Russia does have a unique culture, but if it is to be categorized, it is still a Western one.</p>

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<p>I enjoyed reading this! </p>

<p>A few thoughts:</p>

<p>Russia is also geographically isolated from Western Europe.
Russia is inherited the Byzantine (er, Justinian, I think?) tradition of Caesaropapism...church+state=one ruler, whereas the Western Pope was never considered a ruler except over the Catholic faith, a result of the Great Schism (I think) and the Council of Nicea</p>

<p>I have one misgiving with what you say: Who has ever mistaken Russia for WESTERN? If one was to look at a map, without knowing anything about Russia, one would surely draw the logical conclusion that Russia is Eastern. Oh well.</p>

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<p>nbachris, the entire World, including the US, idolized France in the late 18th and most of the 19th century. No country has shaped the modern world as much as France. Much of the World today still associates France with culture, history, tradition etc... </p>

<p>As for Russia, I agree that it is not Western...but it is, for a large part, European. It is also, for a large part, Asian/Oriental. What do you expect from a country that is more than twice larger than the US? Russia cannot be easily classified. It is not small and homogeneous like Scandinavia or Greece or Portugal. But by and large, most Russians living West of and including Moscow (which pretty much includes over 50% of the entire Russian population) are European, culturally, religiously and racially. </p>

<p>And since when are the Orthodox considered unEuropean. Last I checked, the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and Bulgarians were primarily Orthodox Christians. I'd say that European and Orthodox are not mutually exclusive. I am Catholic myself, and even I will admit that the conflict that arose between the Catholic and Orthodix churches was largely political rather than ideological. The main differences between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church:</p>

<p>1) Orthodox celebrate Christmas in Early January as opposed to Catholics who celebrate it in late December.</p>

<p>2) Orthodox priests can marry, Catholic priests may not.</p>

<p>3) Orthodox clutch three fingers and cross their chests when doing the sign of the cross, Cathloics use an open hand and do not cross their chests when doing the sign of the cross.</p>

<p>4) Orthodox churches look different in style and their masses tend to be more entertaining! </p>

<p>In short, there is no difference that speaks to spirituality. It is one big gimmick!</p>

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<p>I know Russians are European in our contemporary definition, meaning pale-skinned and Caucasoid. I'm not debating that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What I was trying to say is that Russia might not be a Western nation in the same context that France would be, but it still has ties with Western culture that go back further and are more extensive than those of Turkey or Japan. Who would you say are more culturally related to Swedes, Germans and Poles? Russians, Turks or Japs? Russia does have a unique culture, but if it is to be categorized, it is still a Western one.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Firstly, don't use the term "Japs" if you don't want to betray whatever ignorance you may be hiding.</p>

<p>Secondly, tell me about these cultural links that tie pre-Westernized Russia with Western Europe.</p>

<p>If one looks at Russia in the 19th century, then yes, it was a Western power in that it worked with Britain and France. However, Japan was also a strong industrialized country by the early 20th century, with enough power to defeat Russia in a major war. However, would anybody classify Japan as a Western power? If yes, then my whole argument is made moot. But if someone says that Russia can be classified as a Western power but Japan cannot, despite both countries "abandoning" their roots and conforming to Western European ideals, then I believe there is a racist sentiment in the background. </p>

<p>Comparing Russia and Turkey (Ottomans), both empires/nations adhered to religions that were once considered blasphemous by the Latin/Catholic Church. So what if the Orthodox Christians believed in Christ? Muslims believe the story of Moses as well. If a bunch of agnostic Mongols showed up, then those otherworldly Muslims would've probably started to look a little more fraternal as well. </p>

<p>Orientalism dictates the East = despotism. Well, Russia has yet to ever hold a democratic government, even today's sham of a government. Face it, if Russians did not look what we today classify as white, they'd be as foreign and Eastern as Turks, Chinese, Indians, etc. </p>

<p>
[quote]
nbachris, the entire World, including the US, idolized France in the late 18th and most of the 19th century. No country has shaped the modern world as much as France. Much of the World today still associates France with culture, history, tradition etc...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True. The Ottomans and Egyptians emulated France, just like the Russians. But are the two former peoples Western? Absolutely not, most people would say. What about the Russians? Maybe? </p>

<p>Conclusion: Russia = Europe (maybe), but not the West. They're not more Western than the Johnny-come-latelies who emulated the West, like Turkey, Egypt, and Japan.</p>

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<p>I agree in that when one mentions the West, one primarily thinks of Britain, France, and Germany. Russia's kind of the adopted sibling of Europe. Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations" separates Russia and Orthodox Europe from Western Europe as well.</p>

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<p>It all depends on your point of view. The Chinese don't see themselves as being in the Far East. Since they beginning, they viewed themselves as the center of the world. Surely they see Russia or at least Moscow as being Western geographically and culturally. However, they also view Japan and South Korea as being Westernized but I'm sure they don't call it that. It all depends on where you're coming from.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
1) Orthodox celebrate Christmas in Early January as opposed to Catholics who celebrate it in late December.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>People who are Greek Orthodox celebrate Christmas the same time as other Christians. (December 25) I don't know about Russian Orthodox, though.</p>

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<p>nbachris,</p>

<p>few problems with your argument.</p>

<p>1) russia now is considered a western nation, but in the context of history, it isn't. if you ever take a general western history class for the time before around 1750, russia is not mentioned.</p>

<p>2) russia is most definately european, for the fact that it is in europe and has far more connections with europe than asia. While the majority of the country is in asia, the majority of the population is in europe. in history departments, russia will be taught under the european history section, and rarely to never under the east asian section. even with regards to many east asian affairs, russia does not have as big a role as one would think politically - given its immense size and location.</p>

<p>remember, the "westernization process" of russia is far different than that of say japan. while cultural things were imitated by the japanese, the russians actually imitated, and infact became superior at some art forms, and therefore were idolized by the "true european" nations. music is a perfect example. ballet, which was once the french art, by the late 1800s was considered fully russian. if one wished to become a ballet dancer you went to russia. russian composers - composed the best ballets.</p>