<p>The problem for so many high school musicians/composers:</p>
<p>Really smart kids who are also really good at their trade - so they can really go in any direction they want: music or something else. If you've got the ivy level stats (GPA and test scores), but also want a safety that can support your musical interests (and still give you that great academic environment), where do you go? [No conservatories please - schools with separate music schools great.]</p>
<p>thanks.</p>
<p>Lawrence University in Wisconsin is a great music safety with great academics, too. They made my son a good offer, even though he ended up going elsewhere. They do have a separate conservatory, but both parts work closely together. I know they have a terrific science program, which was what interested my son at the time. I think they are strong in liberal arts, as well.</p>
<p>with music performance majoring in it, you basically aren't guarenteed a safety. my best friend who won basically every music scholership and award in the area, was waitlisted at the school she considered a safety, didn't get into her top school, but into her 2nd top school. but she's a flute player.</p>
<p>Even in seeking "safety" schools, one still must consider the basic "is there an appropriate instructor" question...</p>
<p>Many highly-competitive, small, private colleges have solid music programs with top-notch teachers. That is something that not all Ivies can say... You have to do your research for your instrument to see if a particular school that you're interested in has an instructor that meets your needs.</p>
<p>For example, just did a quick search at Bowdoin and most of their instrument facutly are adjuncts, but they attended top notch schools like Eastman, CCM, etc. Susantm's recommendation of Lawrence is also excellent and geographically more suited to your location.</p>
<p>Bottom line is that there is no pat list of safeties as "one person's safety is another's stretch." This one takes research that can only be done by the person involved and should be done in consultation with your private instructor.</p>
<p>Ivy-level stats do not guarantee Ivy acceptances, as evidenced by the slaughter that went on at my daughter's school this year. Let's just say that 2390 SAT, valedictorian status and legacy do not seem to count as much as wrestling or fencing. My daughter, a woodwind music ed wannabe, top 20% of class, found that it really all came down to the audition. She had what she felt was her best audition at the school she liked the best and wound up with a academic and talent scholarship there. There are many wonderful places to be found. I have an Ivy kid too, so I know how enticing those schools can appear.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>my best friend who won basically every music scholership and award in the area, was waitlisted at the school she considered a safety>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>When applying for music programs, your audition is your trump card. If you play a less than stellar audition, you will not get accepted regardless of the number of awards or music scholarships you receive in your "area". . This is especially true for instruments where there are just plain too many players (flutes and soprano singers, for example).</p>
<p>ImperialZeppelin - that's really helpful, thanks.</p>
<p>Thank god I'll be getting in through my composition skills - TOTAL CONTROL over audition. </p>
<p>Question:</p>
<p>Northwestern U. in their supplement I think asks if you're interested in the music school, but doesn't have a little checkbox for composition. Does that mean that I'd have to audition on my instrument (saxophone) to get in even though they'll be much more interested in my composition stuff?</p>
<p>One of the ways we approached this issue was to make a short list of the teachers with whom my daughter really wanted to study. Then we found out where the best of their prior students were now teaching. The first group corresponded to her top choice schools and the second gave her some options for safeties and the middle ground.</p>
<p>Don't count on your compositions giving you total control until you are prepared to analyze them in detail and justify the choices you made in the course of a live interview with your potential teachers. Even then, you may be asked to analyze something you have never seen or heard before. (Hint: Get to know their works as well as possible beforehand.) Don't let youself get too comfortable going into the process - you will still have to perform in real time in an intellectual sense.</p>
<p>CRAP!!!! thinking - NOOOOOOOO! (pronounced gnewoooooowha). </p>
<p>Thanks for the advice - that's really instructive. Will do. </p>
<p>When you mean analyze, do you mean figure out the chord structure, orchestration, what?</p>
<p>I had more in mind identifying the overall structure of the work, picking out subjects, identifying exposition, development and recapitulation sections as applicable, commenting on the relationships between the tonalities of one section and the next, and that sort of thing. If the work is more polyphonic in nature, then it could mean identifying the style of counterpoint being used, finding instances of inversion, augmentation, diminution, stretto, and so forth... Being able to comment on issues like orchestration, voicing and setting of text (if any) would be a plus.</p>
<p>BassDad- </p>
<p>Do colleges recognized the musical backgrounds of their students. I go to a small private school in MN - (although I'm really thankful for some of the opportunities I've gotten there - good writing prep, small classes, access to one of the best speech coaches in the country - the small size just prohibits the school from offering a wide range of classes) which means that I haven't had real access to a Music Theory course, nor anything that resembles composition. </p>
<p>Thus, I have learned all my theory through a jazz camp in Wisconsin (Shell Lake Jazz camp for anyone who's interested - profs from Indiana U and Interlochen Academy come to teach there - yes, it's that good) where I completed their entire improv/theory curriculum (unfortunately, I don't spend enough time practicing the sax to become good at it). </p>
<p>Bottom Line - I am going to try to teach myself the AP Music Theory course this year (it shouldn't be too hard, I sing too so ear training is not a big deal), but ultimately I don't think I'll be able to answer the kinds of questions you're talking about. I sing in the shower, get ideas, and generally know how to notate and harmonize them through my theory training). But that's about it. </p>
<p>Any comments?</p>
<p>It depends a lot on where you intend to audition. If you are looking at the top conservatories, you will be competing against other young composers who have already had a good bit more formal training in music theory and compostitional techniques. That disadvantage can be overcome, but you are going to have to demonstrate a lot of innate talent in your compositions to do so.</p>
<p>Re-reading your initial post, I see that you are not talking about conservatories, but colleges with separate music schools/departments. In some of those cases (and I am thinking of programs like Princeton and MIT, which are well known for their composition departments) you may still have some pretty sophisticated competition. In schools where the composition teachers are not as much in demand, you will probably be up against other kids who are a lot like yourself. I think the best thing you could do in those cases is to be sure that you can talk about your own works, explain how you got your ideas and how you worked with them to get to the end product. Also, it never hurts to display at least a passing familiarity with any works that the intended teacher may have published.</p>
<p>I wouldn't worry too much about having to analyze counterpoint, orchestration structure for most places. 'Most' schools (including some leading conservatories) do not require mandatory composition interviews. </p>
<p>The few schools known for brutal non-portfolio admissions...Juilliard (obviously) and Manhatten School of Music. </p>
<p>Manhattan School of Music requires incoming freshman composers to write fugues....it's kinda insane. I'm not sure how they actually expect people to write fugues for undergrad entrance...</p>
<p>So Princeton and MIT are the places for composition? Any other great universities/LACs for composition you can think of? Also, what kind of prep should I be doing to increase my competitiveness in terms of composition? Should I work to grab more awards - or should I work to get some formal training (as in teach myself AP music theory 1st semester instead of 2nd semester (2nd semester it won't really matter what I learn in terms of college admissions - not like I wouldn't do it anyway, just fyi).</p>
<p>thanks!</p>
<p>Princeton and MIT have a great composition faculty...
But I would consider them good places for the graduate composer and less for the undergrad. Going to MIT for undergrad music is an awful idea... Most people are there for the tech stuff...you'll feel extremely out of place. </p>
<p>Honestly, you should have AP music theory down packed as a composer. You should also work on some basic ear training...melodic dictation, harmonic dictation etc. I would also consider learning some basic species counterpoint. </p>
<p>Again, if you want the most focus on composition, the best places are obviously the conservatories and music schools. Here, you will find many performers to play you music as well as top notch ensembles to read your orchestral music etc. </p>
<p>There are only a few universities (without seperate music schools) that even come close to having such a level of players...</p>
<p>Even at schools such as Williams and Amherst...while certainly not lacking in good musicians, often find it hard to fill an orchestra that is anywhere close to the level of say the Juilliard orchestra. (Partly because of the small size of LACs.)</p>
<p>The few exceptions would be HYPS and and to a lesser extent some other Ivies...those schools are brimming with musical talent. Many do not wish to base their career in music; however, the level of talent is high. The musicians there are probably just as good as those at Juilliard.</p>
<p>So Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford have the musical talent and the good composition professors? </p>
<p>I don't quite understand your sentiment about Williams and Amherst - could you please explain more?</p>
<p>Also - I don't have formal theory training down because I haven't had any exposure. I can do theory, not just traditional, classical theory that everyone lauds.</p>
<p>fhimas: Since your experience at camp has been pivatol in your desire to explore composing, aren't there one or two professors from camp you can discuss your situation there with? You said there were profs from IU and Interlochen so they would be excellent sources of information. They know you and your work and should be able to give you a frank evaluation of you abilities and of schools that could help you grow. Since the jazz community is pretty small, they would be a great start for your search.</p>
<p>fhimas: Just realized that you've posted on over 150 threads, and only a very small percentage of those posts has been here in the Music Major area. From your other posts, it seems that you're most intent on getting into an Ivy League school, which is a great goal.</p>
<p>I don't mean to put your motives in question, but there are two things that you need to consider from the music perspective:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>At the undergraduate level, the Ivies aren't your outstanding music schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Music isn't a great hook at an Ivy. Nonetheless it is a hook, but with many qualified applicants for each position, hooks need to be truly unique. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>So it's decision time for you. Is getting into an Ivy your main goal? If so how can you best achieve that? Is music composition your main goal? If so, how can you feed that ambition? If these two goals can be merged, how do you do it?</p>
<p>I've got TWO main goals - get a great education (major in poly sci, econ, or maybe math) from one of the top institutions in the country AND do some hardcore composing (that way I'll be able to figure out what I want to do in graduate school). There is no way I'm just going to stop music nor would I want to essentially end my liberal arts education by going to a music conservatory. </p>
<p>Getting into an Ivy is not my main goal here. I want to go to a place that has a really good comp faculty where I'll have ACCESS to that faculty, and get a good education. I need to do that, however, in a place that has fewer than 10,000 undergraduates (preferably between 3 and 8 thousand). From what I have read, ivies generally have some of the top composition faculty in the country - so that wouldn't be a horrible place to end up. </p>
<p>Although it indicates good research skills, checking on my previous posts may not help you understand my goals as well as you might think. We all know that the 'college admissions process' is a JOURNEY. That said, I am quite positive that my evolving list of colleges now is much more comprehensive than it was in June of 2005. In June of 2005, I was like most every CC.com newbie - posting my stats in the 'What Are My Chances?" sub forum and asking questions that could be easily answered through a little bit of research. I guess everyone at some point needs to get through that [<em>said quickly, nervously</em>] 'I have no idea what's going on, but my stats are good right?????!, I can get into an Ivy....., they'll serve me well, I think, maybe, yi-yi-yi-yeah, I'm right' stage and move to a higher understanding of what the college admissions process is all about. I hope I've gotten there....</p>
<p>
This is more or less true simply because of the fact that the composition faculty at all the Ivies are very graduate oriented. </p>
<p>With that said however, if one does not wish to enter a conservatory, they are certainly your best bet. fhimas88888888 seems to want to get a very good liberal arts education- the Ivies, for the most part, fulfull that function. Furthermore, at the Ivies, you study music as if it is another academic disapline such as philosophy or math rather than the more careeriest/professional style you would encounter at say a conservatory.
Furthermore, if there is one field of music where it is infinately easier to be an autodidact, it is in composition. </p>
<p>One should obviously also consider schools such as Northwestern, Rice, Oberlin etc. which are not stand-alone conservatories but schools within schools. These schools often have double-degree programs set up. However, I strongly recommend that you find out how they are set up; double-degree programs are not all created equal. Some are very well planned out and some will just give you headaches because no one knows what's going on and no one can give you any answers. </p>
<p>With that said, there are certainly many great composers in the US that did their undergrad at an Ivy or LAC rather than a conservatory. You certainly wont be at a disadvantage.</p>