<p>Chanman, it's "Indiana University", first of all. It is quite respected, especially for Business and Music. I am an alum and both my kids applied and were accepted with merit money. Nobody went- I guess they wanted to spend more money. :)</p>
<p>A good friend of mine went to undergrad at Indiana University and then went on to get a PhD from MIT. If you are bright enough to get a full ride from IU, then there's no reason you can't achieve whatever you want going there. (As a University of Illinois grad school alumni, complimenting IU is very painful!) Seriously, you can get a great education at a school like IU. But IU is a very different experience from a small liberal arts school. You have to decide what's right for you - and there can be good opportunities at some smaller schools that may not be quite as attractive, but won't break the bank.</p>
<p>Honors colleges at large state universities are typically much better for students planning to attend graduate school than most prestige schools. However, honors colleges and programs are not all alike,but many offer better class size,housing,research and job opportunities,socialization and recognition than do private,prestige institutions. A properly structured honors college at a flagship state university offering full tuition merit aid is the single biggest fear of the ivy admissions officers. The ivies and prestige schools primarily benefit boa****l or unknowledgeable parents, or students planning to join the workforce immediately after completion of a four year degree.</p>
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What do you base this on Mark? Why not merit offers from slightly less selective privates, too?</p>
<p>That statement is from investment fund managers handling endowment funds for some ivies, several prestige,one large state system, as well as from my clients attending both types of universities over many years. Additionally, I have studied higher education institutions since 1994. I also attended private schools for college and a large state university for law school. I have a great amount of first hand knowledge from direct contact and consulting. Many, if not most, honors colleges are actively seeking students who formerly only considered ivy or baby ivies, while the ivies seek talented first generation college students and\or students of color. This is a significant shift for both.</p>
<p>The students tend to be highly motivated and with outstanding achievements at large state flagship universities when compared to the few merit scholars at less selective schools. However this is broadly worded advice that should only be considered in light of one's particular circumstance. Again, I'm only referring to the top , properly structured honors colleges.</p>
<p>i faced this same problem last year. i got full rides at a few of my safeties and then i got no financial aid at either of my two dream schools. my parents of course wanted me to go where i would be happy, so i decided that my state school was just not for me (too much like high school part two). so, now i'm a freshman at my dream school, finishing my first semester, and i realize i made the right choice. i'm lovin school and the people and the opportunities. and everytime i talk with my friends from home (all of whom went to the state school) i realize even more why i needed to go a different direction. if i had gone to the state uni, i'm sure i would've loved it, but it just wouldn't be the same. and i needed that change. i needed to grow as a person without my family and friends being a crutch. and i can honestly say that i think i've grown and changed so much within first semester, while my friends back home all seem exactly the same. they hang out with the same people and do the same things, just in a different setting. but i guess it all depends on the person.</p>
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Again, I'm only referring to the top , properly structured honors colleges.
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And what schools would those be? </p>
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The students tend to be highly motivated and with outstanding achievements at large state flagship universities when compared to the few merit scholars at less selective schools.
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But isn't it true that many of the top scholarship winners at the slightly less , but still selective, schools are the same kids being offered the Ivy spots and the HC spots? For example, the kids at USC or UMiami getting a full tuition award routinely have stats commensurate with the top quarter to half of Harvard or Yale admittees while the students receiving top merit awards at Sewanee, Trinity, Furman, Tulane, all seem to have EC's that rival the best in the country and most report acceptances to all of the elites and best known HC's. </p>
<p>I'm having some trouble buying in fully to your theory as in my experience we are talking about the same top few percentiles of the kids in the national pool. In fact last year my D was actually running into some of the same kids at scholarship days and special scholar program days at schools several states away. (The pool is not really that large. ;))</p>
<p>It is my suggestion that there is substantial overlap in these student populations and all of the schools are doing what they can to market themselves to these top students, whether that be with HC perks, scholarships, or preferential need based (ex. "no loan" ) packages (or in some cases all the above).</p>
<p>BTW, I am a fan of HC's. My personal favorite is Plan II at UT.</p>
<p>Edit: p.s. And as to the difference between the top merit scholarship kids at the colleges slightly below the top , the top kids at the top schools, and the top flagship HC kids? Take off the logowear (and any indicia of wealth) and I'll bet you can't CSI out who goes where without dna testing and carbon dating. ;) JMO.</p>
<p>Yes and no. Depends on several factors, especially regarding which less selective schools are being considered. Many less selective schools only offer need based financial aid, just like the ivies. Many honors colleges consist of 1,000 to 2,000 students out of 10,000 to 30,000 students and offer benefits too lengthy to list here. Point being that some honors colleges truly are small colleges within a large university environment offering options which smaller non-doctoral degree granting schools cannot match. To fully and correctly answer your questions would require a book. I apologize for my short response.</p>
<p>Come now Mark. Many of us have some knowledge about these things . We'll try to keep up. If we fall too far behind, I'll be the first to yell "Uncle". </p>
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Point being that some honors colleges truly are small colleges within a large university environment offering options which smaller non-doctoral degree granting schools cannot match.
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And I can assure you the reverse is true, too.</p>
<p>Now you are just being obnoxious and insulting. I"m sorry that you have misinterpeted my response. I have a life beyond this internet website. Good-bye.</p>
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Actually there are very few need based schools that are not in the elite category. In fact there are less than 50, maybe less than 30 in the U.S. in all categories of selectivity that have zero generally available merit awards. I had a thread on this earlier this year. Two threads to be precise.</p>
<p>Obnoxious and insulting? :eek: Today? Just then?</p>
<p>By questioning your theory? My gosh. And I was on my best behavior , too. ;) (Now your response #209 was both dismissive and pompous but I didn't bring that up, now did I?)</p>
<p>"Discussion board", Mark. We discuss. We even argue. We don't pronounce truths or speak ex cathedra. At least some of us don't. ;) And we certainly don't expect for what we say to go unchallenged. Gee. </p>
<p>I do hope you stay because I would like to hear more about why you think the way you do. I think you are way wrong-headed on this topic but I'd like to see how you got there.</p>
<p>Cur, </p>
<p>Mark clearly does not realize the immense personal research and experience you bring to this topic! He would be well advised to read some of the previous threads. There are many of us out here listening to your wisdom and taking notes!</p>
<p>And I don't think you were obnoxious at all. :)</p>
<p>I have a friend whose daughter chose it (Indiana) over NYU Tisch. She decided she wanted a campus and more varied courses. She's double majoring in dance and French and has had great jobs every summer in theater.</p>
<p>I would also like to know which universities offer what Mark considers to be "properly structured" honors colleges, because D is considering three of them. Or, at least, what are the characteristics we should be looking for?</p>
<p>So clearly, people have talked about a lot of different things since the original topic and I don't have time to read it all, but I wanted to give my perspective since the same thing happened to me back when I applied to college. I have wanted to go to UChicago since before I can remember. I visited 3 times (I live in the area) and loved it more each time I went. Got in EA, but come April got no money. I had also applied to Brandeis, also prestegious, though less well-known. Got in there with a full-tuition scholarship. I had applied on a whim because it was common app and, in the Jewish community I grew up in, "everyone applied to Brandeis." For a bunch of reasons, I chose Brandeis and I couldn't be happier. I decided to pursue chemistry instead of earth sciences because Brandeis doesn't have a department for it and (who knew?) I'm in love. Luckily, Brandeis is known for churning out great undergraduate chemists. I love the environment at the school and it's wonderfully challenging, which was my main concern when I picked Brandeis over Chicago. Plus, my parents are giving me the money that they had saved up (not the full difference in cost, but enough money to make a 20-year-old's head spin a bit) which I used to settle myself in San Francisco to take a great internship. The rest will probably go to backpacking Europe and settling myself into whatever graduate school I attend since I've decided to pursue a PhD in chemistry. </p>
<p>But here's the thing. I knew I would like it at Brandeis, it just wasn't quite as comfy a fit as Chicago (though, granted, some of that was the prestige thing. Since hearing all about Chicago since the winter, my teachers and classmates raised an eyebrow at Brandeis. Most hadn't heard of it). So if the choice is going somewhere for less money and being miserable, that's probably not a good call. If a person is unhappy in college (with exceptions, of course) it's harder to excel. However, if the choice is between a less expensive good thing and a much more expensive, but only slightly better thing, I'd say go with the first. Just my $0.02.</p>
<p>Well, I guess that I will go far enough out onto a limb that it will break and down I'll go, BUT....</p>
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...I will agree with this statement and will agree with the general thought that Mark is trying to get across.</p>
<p>This forum does have a bias toward both small LACs over larger (especially public) schools and a strong bias toward name recognition. My son is attending a non-name-brand (public) school in what I would call a "properly-constructed honors program" that I think is the best choice he could have made. And oh, btw, with good merit money.</p>
<p>We all have expertise in various areas. 'Mudge has more than most of us. And Carolyn may know more about LACs than anyone else we'll ever meet. But no one knows about ALL colleges and programs, and never can, because the answers to questions about "best" will change with each student.</p>
<p>LurkNessMonster: Which three? My responses are limited as this is only my second day of typing and first week on a computer. I have done extensive research on honors colleges and programs. Most important are administration"s support for honors, next that program/college be front loaded,priority registration,honors community such as special housing, i could list more but prefer to address specific honors colleges with which i have some recent knowledge.</p>
<p>dig, you know I love the HTC. It is a fantastic program. It certainly qualifies as a "properly constructed HC". As I told Mark, I am a fan of HC's. My D considered several and I researched many. </p>
<p>But to say that LAC's "cannot" match the opportunities, I just don't get that. How could y'all possibly know that? My response was that the opposite was true also. That HC's cannot match what LAC's provide in the way of opps. Well , it's at least as true as the other statement. ;)</p>
<p>I try not to answer "best" questions very often and if I do I say "best for my D" or "better for my D". </p>
<p>Blanket statements are usually false. Mark's was.</p>