<p>Which one is better?</p>
<p>It depends.</p>
<p>UOP has a better Teacher Cred program. Both have good law schools. UOP is bigger in sports and greek life. SCU is a very nice city - Stockton, not so much.</p>
<p>Simply: It depends. Someone would have to get into specifics.</p>
<p>Why don’t you just get into the specifics; you already named one (the location). What about others? Like endowment, national recognition, rankings, programs, etc. These two institutions are considered “peer institutions” so I like the comparison and contrast.</p>
<p>Since you asked, I guess a few specifics are:
- Already mentioned location. The city of Stockton recently filed bankruptcy, and despite the citys monumental efforts to revive the downtown area, there isnt much to see or do there that you wouldnt otherwise be able to do in a different, and cleaner, location. I lived there for 6+ years, so believe me when I say the city mostly has that worn out look to it. The only real interest in downtown for college age students might be the new area at the Port where you can see AAA baseball and ice hockey. They do have the asparagus festival every year (which is the only thing I return for, besides my parents still living there), and thats kind of cool. Every time I drive in from I-5 I smell a distinct odor of dog food and indeed Ive been told theres some dog food factory off the highway just before you reach the Southern border (French Camp area).</p>
<p>Alternatively, Santa Clara is cleaner, smaller, and more centrally located to the greater SF Bay Area. Closer drive to either SF or LA during a long weekend. This is where I live now! Ive driven from SC to Disneyland in one nights drive. I also recently drove to SF, visited Coit Tower (again), dined at my favorite Fishermans Warf spot, and watched the Broadways Lion King all in one afternoon/evening. So its safe to say there is plenty to do a little ways outside of the city, let alone what is almost inside the border. Ive even driven from SC to Vegas in a days time. Paramounts Great America is right there, and supposedly sometime in the near future they will have the new 49er stadium complete. CalTrain station right near campus can get you to the 3rd & King stop in SF in about 1 hour perfect spot to be let off for Giants games at AT&T Park. To get to the park from Stockton, yous have to drive to Pleasanton or somewhere first to catch BART (CalTrain nor BART run as far as Stockton).</p>
<p>But seriously visit both campuses if possible. The UOP campus itself is awesome and the church there blows the Santa Clara Mission out of the water.</p>
<ol>
<li>Endowment and Financials. UOP endowment is ~$200M with 3500 undergrads. SCU endowment is ~$700M with 5000 undergrads. However, Im actually a numbers nut and I like to point out that endowment doesnt exactly paint an accurate picture of the schools finances. For example, per the Presidents Reports for each school - UOP Revenue from Tuition for 2011 was $200M, and they gave $56M, or 28%, back as an expense toward Financial Aid, going to helping students affording to attend. SCU Revenue from Tuition for 2011 was $270M, and gave $63M, or 23%, as an expense toward Financial Aid. Therefore, it may be viewed that while SCU has a bigger endowment, they are spending less of it as a percentage toward helping students afford attending there.</li>
</ol>
<p>Also, while their endowment ends have a $500M difference, their total Revenues for 2011 were $318M (UOP) and $355M (SCU), so a relatively smaller difference of $37M. If I were looking for a school that appeared to dilute their funds in a more equitable way and managed their finances well, I would look towards UOP, and not SCU.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>National Recognition. I dont have much to say in regards to this, as its hard for me to recall a time Ive heard someone mention either school outside of the greater CA Bay Area and San Joaquin Valley.</p></li>
<li><p>Rankings. I think theyre almost worthless, but heres the facts: UOP has consistently ranked in the top 100 or just outside of it (low of the current 106) for National universities, which are classified differently from Regional universities where SCU consistently ranks 2nd in the West region states West of Colorado. Interestingly enough though UOP and SCU ranked 2nd and 1st respectively by PayScales most recent analysis for highest paid undergrads in the West. Guess you cant go wrong either way for that one.</p></li>
<li><p>Programs and Academics. Very generally, UOP is more solidified for health careers with schools of Dentistry and Pharmacy, but SCU does have highly recognized (state-wide at least) schools for Business and Engineering. Both have highly reputable Law Schools. SCU has a school of Theology, of which UOP does not, but UOP has a more dedicated school of Education for credentialing teachers. Greek life plays a bigger role at UOP than SCU as SCU does not officially recognize the Greek societies, though they exist to a capacity. Sports will be much bigger at UOP. Some people dont agree with my view of this since SCU is in the WCC, the West Coast Conference consisting of 9 member schools that play throughout 4 different states (and therefore people assume more notoriety because of the farther travel), but all members of the WCC are private schools and all do not have a football team. Being private they all have student bodies less than 10,000 (with BYU as the exception). Not all students go to athletic events and that creates lower turnout for attendance. UOP on the other hand is in the Big West Conference and is the only private school member of the 16 members all in California. Each member has a student body of at least 20,000 (UOP is the only exception). Watching and playing games with UOP proves to be much more exciting when a few thousand are in attendance rather than a few hundred.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>But alas, UOP will rejoin their peers in the WCC after this academic year (2012-2013), but coming from a bigger attendance conference I predict their momentum will keep going within their athletics, at least for the near future.</p>
<p>Summary:
Location, SCU
Financials, UOP
Recognition, Tie
Rankings, Tie
Academics, depends on what you intend to do
Sports, UOP even though they will be rejoining the WCC after this year</p>
<p>Thats all Ive got for now, unless you can get more specific.</p>
<p>You’re analysis is very good; although I would like to point out some facts that you stated. </p>
<p>(1) You say that SCU is closer drive to L.A is false. The I-5 takes you directly from UOP to L.A faster than the route from SCU to L.A. However, SCU is indeed closer to SF.
(2)The WEST COAST CONFERENCE is more recognized than the BIG WEST CONFERENCE. Just because a school has many students does not mean that many of them show up to sporting events. The schools in the BIG WEST do not have much school spirit. Moreover, the schools in the WCC are better known for their basketball programs than the BIG WEST (etc., Gonzaga, Saint Mary’s). The schools in this conference have plenty school spirit.</p>
<p>Otherwise; good answer (especially #2)</p>
<p><a href=“1”>quote=contrapositive1</a> You say that SCU is closer drive to L.A is false. The I-5 takes you directly from UOP to L.A faster than the route from SCU to L.A.
[/quote]
Technically, UOP to Disney is 3 miles shorter than SCU to Disney. In a 360-70 mile drive, I’ll call that the same, so that can be a tie too, IMO. But I’d think it’s better to be 1/2 as close to SF (~40 miles difference) than 3 miles closer to Disneyland. Anyhoo . . .</p>
<p><a href=“2”>quote=contrapositive1</a>The WEST COAST CONFERENCE is more recognized than the BIG WEST CONFERENCE. Just because a school has many students does not mean that many of them show up to sporting events. The schools in the BIG WEST do not have much school spirit. Moreover, the schools in the WCC are better known for their basketball programs than the BIG WEST (etc., Gonzaga, Saint Mary’s). The schools in this conference have plenty school spirit.
[/quote]
Just to start, I’m not meaning to specifically say that WCC has less school spirit than BWC (indeed I never even used the word spirit), but . . . let’s just say that any random WCC school is at 100% ‘spirit’ meaning 100% of the student body will come to any given athletic event, for example basketball. Even if any random BWC team were at 25% of school spirit, that means more will still show up to the BWC game than the WCC game, and the BWC school would most likely be able to actually fit most if not all of those patrons in the event location - only 1 WCC location (again, exception to BYU) has a location capacity over 6,000. BWC has 4 that seat over 6,000. It’s seriously not a ‘spirit’ thing, it’s simply a numbers thing - WCC does not have enough as strong of student body base for athletics to make as big an impact as a BWC school, even if every single student, and a friend, went to a game. I’ve been to collegiate athletic events (basketball, baseball, soccer, volleyball, even track and field) for both schools since I’ve lived right near both of them for 6 or more years each and from my experiences, there have always been bigger crowds and bigger support from the UOP side than the SCU side. The only exception was the SCU vs Gonzaga basketball games when my wife attended SCU, and that’s because Gonzaga is like a rival with everyone it seems like.</p>
<p>
That’s great for students who are only interested in basketball. Some argue WCC is more prominent in soccer as well.</p>
<p>(1) Disney is not in L.A; it is in Orange County. I live in the OC and people cringe when they say we are L.A. Some people believe this because of the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana metropolitan statistical area; but this is only used for statistical purposes for the Gov’t. Anything outside of that would just be ridiculous.</p>
<p>(2) You assume that only college students will show up. This is your assumption when you say “it is a numbers thing.” According to you, a WCC at 100% will not compare to a BWC at 25% in terms of general seating. This is true since there are more students in the latter than in the former. But the sporting events will not bring in just students. What about the local community, the fans, the alumni? These all need to be taken into consideration.</p>
<p>(3) Lastly, I think the WCC overall is better that the BWC.</p>
<p><a href=“1”>quote=contrapositive1</a> Disney is not in L.A; it is in Orange County.
[/quote]
Uh, in case you’ve never looked at a map, to get to Disneyland using I-5 coming from the North (i.e. the Bay Area) you have to pass through the city of Los Angeles. Therefore, it’s inherent that if you are farther or closer to Disneyland, then you are just as far or close to Los Angeles coming from the same direction.</p>
<p>I never said Disneyland is in LA. I used Disney as my example of somewhere I actually drove to (I’ve only flown to LA, but have driven through many many times).</p>
<p><a href=“2”>quote=contrapositive1</a> You assume that only college students will show up. This is your assumption when you say “it is a numbers thing.” According to you, a WCC at 100% will not compare to a BWC at 25% in terms of general seating. This is true since there are more students in the latter than in the former. But the sporting events will not bring in just students. What about the local community, the fans, the alumni? These all need to be taken into consideration.
[/quote]
^I didn’t make the assumption that only students would attend, which was the reasoning for my use of the word “friend”, which would encompass family, friends, alumni, and other community individuals that may also attend the games in support of the school. If you don’t, then you should probably read posts more than once before responding.</p>
<p><a href=“3”>quote=contrapositive1</a> Lastly, I think the WCC overall is better that the BWC.
[/quote]
Okay.</p>
<p>(1) We restricted our previous conversation to only L.A. Then you randomly bring in Disney. It is just confusing. </p>
<p>Moreover, going from UOP to L.A is faster than going from SCU to L.A. Just look it up on google maps.</p>
<p>(2) “…even if every single student, and a friend, went to a game.” What I find problematic about this is that you say “a friend” and not “friends.” With the former, you cannot say that it encompasses friends, family, alumni, etc. b/c it is singular. If you had said “friends,” one could have assumed what you meant. </p>
<p>Even if you had said this, it would not strengthen your argument about the WCC school at 100% vs the BWC school at 20%. In fact it weakens it. This is because what you are arguing (at 1st) is that any BWC school will bring in more students than a WCC school (b/c the latter has few students). But when you include “friends, alumni, family, etc.” you weaken your argument because it could be the case that a WCC school brings in more “friends” than a BWC school; even if the BWC school has more students.</p>
<p><a href=“1”>quote=contrapositive1</a> We restricted our previous conversation to only L.A. Then you randomly bring in Disney. It is just confusing.
[/quote]
I explained that Disney was just an example of somewhere I’ve actually driven to.</p>
<p>
I did, that’s how I came to this in a earlier post:
Don’t get confused again, now . . . the quote says Disney, but I’ve already established you need to drive through LA to get to Disney, so it’s the same difference to either location for these two schools.
Google maps says:
SCU - Los Angeles
343 miles, 5 hours 8 minutes</p>
<p>UOP - Los Angeles
340 miles, 4 hours 55 minutes
*Based on current traffic time for when I pulled it
Amazing, Google shows a 3 mile difference. I also mentioned that in a 300+ road trip, 3 miles is relatively insignificant. So, a rational person can conclude that is it approximately the same distance to go from SCU to Los Angeles (or Disney) as it is to go from UOP to Los Angeles (or Disney).</p>
<p><a href=“2”>quote=contrapositive1</a> “…even if every single student, and a friend, went to a game.” What I find problematic about this is that you say “a friend” and not “friends.” With the former, you cannot say that it encompasses friends, family, alumni, etc. b/c it is singular. If you had said “friends,” one could have assumed what you meant.
[/quote]
That’s a bit nit-picky (kind of like a 3 mile difference in a 300+ mile trip, but you seem to have a theme here), and if you really want to get into sentence structure, I had “friend” as the singular since “every student” is also singular, keeping better sentence flow and the agreements in a row. Besides, not every student will bring a friend - indeed they will most likely only be accompanied by other students and thus no non-students like alum and family.</p>
<p>
Okay, and now let’s actually assume some rationality - more students will mean more alumni, friends of those students, and family of those students. Therefore, it would be more likely to assume that these schools will be able to actually bring in more of a non-student base.</p>
<p>Seriously, these BWC schools don’t have just 2x as many students at WCC schools, they have 4 to 6x as many, will have 4 to 6x as many alumni and 4 to 6x as many family members willing to support the athletics.</p>
<p>If you don’t accept that rationalization, then I dunno what else to say, except that you might be ■■■■■■■■. . .</p>
<p>contrapositive, I see you’ve created several threads here on CC asking people to compare several schools to UOP. That’s wonderful, and that could initiate interesting conversation about the relative merits of your pairings: UOP vs Santa Clara, UOP vs U of Oregon, on and on etc. I’m guessing these are schools you are considering attending, or have some other interest in hearing how people feel UOP stacks up against other schools. It’s likely some lively conversations would benefit other applicants considering these pairings as well. </p>
<p>But you might want to be a wee bit friendlier and less confrontational when folks take the time to reply back with their opinions, and not challenge them on what you perceive to be flaws in their “arguments” or be so judgmental about their “analysis” and label their opinions as “problematic.”</p>
<p>This is College Confidential, not the U.S. Supreme Court, for goodness sakes! </p>
<p>If there were magic formulas to come up with some absolutely objective ranking system to compare colleges without subjective data leaking in (including what a student is looking for in a college experience, the biggest variable of all!), I’m guessing people smarter than us would have created it by now. </p>
<p>Just a suggestion: Lighten up! Be nicer to the people offering you their OPINIONS. Cold hard facts can be found in all these schools websites and in their published Common Data Sets (and even there, some subjectivity in how they report data will affect numbers.) </p>
<p>Chill a bit… You might actually get more people entering into your conversations! Isn’t that what you’d like?</p>
<p>turtlerock…good response…</p>
<p>Jane345 I believe you are exaggerating a bit too much. Me and turtlerock were having a genuine discussion. Yes there were disagreements but I believe we both rationally defended our own positions.</p>
<p>Just because my replies seem to appear “confrontational” does not mean that my replies are indeed confrontational. Appearance VS. reality. When I state that their arguments are flawed, that they are assuming too much, or that their premises are problematic is NOT something based on piddling judgment. These are things that people ought to raise in genuine debates and/or disagreements. Take a look at turtlerock; when I pressed him on some issues he clarified his positions. This is what genuine debaters do.</p>
<p>You tell me to lighten up, when it is you who should lighten up, and not see CC with such myopic provincialism. </p>
<p>But I think I have been a bit argumentative; I guess I should spend less time on toplawschools.com</p>
<p>contra, you may as well learn this now while you are still very young: Perception IS Reality</p>
<p>DunninLA: no it is not. This is a logical fallacy. Just because many people believe this is the case does not make it true.</p>