<p>This article upset me - First, we have the ETS, now, US News is just as pernicious. </p>
<p>Let's speak up, parents, and get these booted feet off our neck. Perhaps a letter campaign complaining about the tyranny of the rankings, how they force colleges to march in rows, regardless of their offerings or educational value they provide that might be obscured by the US News methodology. (Classic example, St. John's College -condemned to a lower ranking tier forever because it has a unique program and won't [indeed, can't, according to the nature of its program] 'play ball' with US news).</p>
<p>The problem is the non sequitur in the president's argument: although she admits that students are better than ever, she then says that it matters what USNWR says; not so.</p>
<p>I applaud SL for taking the boot off its neck, and I hope it has the courage(?) to keep it off. </p>
<p>I would recommend a letter-writing campaign to alums which directly addresses the issue, in order to stem any alumni concerns.</p>
<p>Wow..it almost sounds like US News coerces schools into participating by saying that if they DON'T the assumption is that their data is one standard deviation below the average.</p>
<p>This is really bad. I have to admit I've looked at the rankings but I don't worship them as some seem to do. I haven't bought the magazine and it's not going to be how my son picks a college. I can write a column about it for our local paper and I'd be happy to write letters too. Any idea how best to direct a letter writing campaign?</p>
<p>Sarah Lawrence is a very quirky school. Not only do they not use SATs, but they also don't grade students. I don't think their target audience is the type to be moved by USNews rankings anyway. They're not really high up there as it is.</p>
<p>I think this is a whiney article. The SL philosophy directly conflicts with quantitative rankings. So do the honest thing and opt out. You can't have it both ways.</p>
<p>StickerShock - you are mistaken. Sarah Lawrence, like Reed, gives letter grades to all students, but does not report them to the student unless the student asks to see them. Instead the faculty provides a written evaluation of each student -- but there is a grade recorded for every course, which will show up on the transcript for purposes of grad school applications or transfer.</p>
<p>The problem is -- they can't really opt out. Reed tried that, didn't work. US News ranks them anyway .... apparently (according to the article), using fictional data deliberately skewed downward. Not just SAT scores - but any other US News category for which there is no published data available. So they get ranked one way or another.</p>
<p>I do think they should just opt out -- but it does put the onus on them to publicize their reasons and do more outreach to ensure that students apply with an understanding of the level of work required at the school. </p>
<p>Actually, I think they should work with other colleges such as Reed and St. Johns -- maybe those colleges could form an association based on some of their common values. They already have exchange programs with Reed and Eugene Lang -- both of which also suffer at the hands of US News arbitrary ranking system. I'd like to see these colleges get the word out about their stronger academic focus -- these are all colleges which have intensely focused academic programs. They have very limited athletics, they don't have frats or sororities, etc. So I could see them very successfully marketing themselves as basically being true institutions of higher learning. They really could spearhead a movement away from the domination of US News.</p>
<p>I don't even find the rankings to be particularly interesting in US News. I do, however, find the information they compile to be useful (student body, financial aid, GPAs and SAT scores, campus life -- all that stuff).</p>
<p>Well, yes. They need data collected for graduate school. But the entire focus of the school is anti-grading, anti-quantitatve evaluation of any kind. Anti-core. No stressing of math/science requirements. It's a very artsy poet type of school. For SL, trying to move up the USNews ranks would be like a fencing team showing up at a basketball tournament & complaining that their talents won't be appreciated.</p>
<p>If SL does not ask for SAT scores and thus USN&WR cannot report them, how do prospective students know whethere they are in the ballpark or not?<br>
We can dismiss rankings, but the ACT/SAT scores are a useful metric.</p>
<p>marite - I don't understand? I think that since SATs aren't reported they could have any score and it wouldn't matter. They'd have to look at their grades and courses to determine whether they were in the ballpark. </p>
<p>I thought it was interesting that she brought up the point of it being a writing intensive liberal arts school, and the SAT not predicting success in that respect. I think this is generally true. I also think the SAT is useful for predicting success in some programs (particularly math based ones that require a lot of natural logical ability). But still, all the same I have to wonder. If they are really taking students with great grades in tons of AP classes, are they being that much less exclusive? (in reference to the points about disadvantaged kids and the SAT). I would imagine that all the students they're taking have a decent SAT score if their coursework is so competitive. Maybe not all 1400-1600, but well above average I'd imagine. </p>
<p>Now I'm sure from an economically disadvantaged community where many APs weren't offered, this would be taken into account. But what about a poor student in an area where they are the minority economically? This is the big problem. This student may be able to handle more APs, but is discouraged from taking them, doesn't have parents who can advocate for it (true story: one of my Governor's School classmates, who is Hispanic and moved here as a young child so obviously fluent in English by now, was called into the office about her schedule for both junior and senior years, and questioned as to whether she was "sure" she could handle AP classes. She also had to take a mandantory ESL test). Or, they can't afford the cost of the tests, the books. SATs could possibly work in this kids favor, if they're really bright and can do them well naturally. However kids who aren't as bright will still achieve the same score through lots of prep and taking the test four times. So I can see where SL is coming from. But still, it just seems disingenuous to act like a beacon of hope for all those disadvantaged kids out there when we know full well that they probably aren't even applying to schools like SL and the deck is still stacked against them.</p>
<p>Reed does not participate in USNews, but yet Reed does publish its common data set, allowing prospies to obtain an idea of their competitiveness stat-wise. Otoh, SL does not publish a cds -- at least I couldn't find it on their website. Personally, I'm suspect of any school that doesn't publish a cds -- too easy to hide numbers, as Penn & USC have done for years. (At least USC has been more forthcoming with stats recently.)</p>
<p>If SL wants to be part of USNews, the data points are necessary for calculation purposes. Granted, USNews assumption about one standard deviation decrement, is probably just as (in?)valid as SL's wanting USNews to use the means for thier peer group (whoever that might be).</p>
<p>They look at grades, coursework, recs, and writing ability. Students know if they have good grades and if they can write well. </p>
<p>And SS -- Sarah Lawrence has breadth requirements. It requires students to select courses from at least 3 out of 4 disciplines. It would be possible for a student to forego math & science and concentrate on the other 3 disciplines -- but that isn't the same as your implication that they just take whatever they want. Creative & performing arts is one of the 4 disciplines, but the arts-focused students are going to have to take courses from the other areas (basically humanities & social sciences if they opt not to take math & science). </p>
<p>The Sarah Larwrence model is to have most of the classes include a tutorial component where the student meets one-on-one with the prof to do an extensive, individual project in conjunction with the course work.</p>
<p>calmom, one of my oldest & dearest friends has a D in SL. She was the perfect SL candidate in every way. I'm well aware of their focus & philosophy. Their requirements can't be compared to a more structured & comprehensive core curriculum. Apples & oranges. One-on-one tutorials for all vs. SAT-focused superstars vying for research grants & internships. It's simply a unique place that can't be captured with a USNews ranking.</p>
<p>Princedog, Sarah Lawrence would probably be very flexible in admissions toward students coming from underprivileged backgrounds -- in part because not many apply and they are concerned about diversity. The problem, I think, is that it is very difficult for a college like SLC to attract students from lower-income backgrounds because it offers a generic "liberal arts" degree and is not at all career-focused -- so students who view their college education as their way to break out of poverty might not see the artsy/intellectual approach of SLC as being much of a guarantee of future employment.</p>
<p>If colleges want to do something about this, the best way is to come up with a better way of measuring the "worth" of various schools. The reason US News is so popular is because it:</p>
<ol>
<li> Provides information people perceive as being useful when making a very expensive consumer choice</li>
<li> Uses many data, and tends to use the most relevant data that is readily available</li>
</ol>
<p>I work in academe, and I firmly believe that much of the opposition to US News comes from those who don't want to be evaluated. Our administration complains about the accuracy of the rankings, but has produced no useful alternative. Ideally, information would include the value added in the educational process, but that's an impossibility because even the desired outcomes are not defined (with a few rare exceptions).</p>
<p>Until colleges step up to the plate and offer a reasonable alternative, US News will continue to thrive because it offers valuable information to consumers.</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure that SL can recognize who is a good fit without benefit of SAT scores. It's the prospies who do not really have a good idea of what their GPAs mean when compared with others and do not really know how good or how poor writers they are. It's amazing what misperceptions students have of their own or of others' abilities. A 25-75 percentile range is a useful metric for prospies to have.</p>
<p>USNews can pick on a Sarah Lawrence or a Reed College, great lac's that they are. Stanford's president a few years ago published an eloquent anti-rankings letter, but till a school of this weight goes so far as refusing to cooperate will USnews stop their absolute rankings, which I personally don't like. Ranking in groups...fine.</p>
<p>SLC situation is indeed unique, if they don't even have SAT scores to report I believe USN has an obligation to report this so potential applicants and their parents might know the true story for that school, not to push them unfairly down in the rankings, then attach a footnote written in the tiniest type possible.</p>
<p>What about Brown? Brown has an open curriculum, possibly more flexible than Sarah Lawrence's. Would you argue that Brown shouldn't be ranked? After all, how do you compare Brown to a program with a core like Columbia?</p>
<p>I think the whole idea of ranking is stupid, actually - but the argument about the curriculum would pretty much apply across the board. The SLC structure is somewhat different, but it is still a 4 year college where students are going to get a broad liberal arts education.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A 25-75 percentile range is a useful metric for prospies to have.
[/quote]
That would be misleading to students who thought their high SAT scores would make up for their deficient writing ability. (And there are plenty of students who have great scores and really do not express themselves at all well in writing). </p>
<p>In any case, if the school doesn't ask for and doesn't consider scores, then there is no point to the metric. It wouldn't be considered anyway.</p>