<p>I had an interesting discussion with D about the paucity of NMF scholars at her high school. I tend to attribute it to an administration differences, but she thinks that at her large midwestern high school students are "trained" to think and take tests in a manner that optimizes the ACT scores rather than SAT scores. I was wondering if others have seen a difference in how students at "ACT schools" think compared to those who go to schools that are more SAT oriented. </p>
<p>I live in ACT country, but have been doing test prep mostly for PSAT/SAT for quite a few years. Although the schools will brag about NMF’s, and we do have quite a few in our district, even the teachers, counselors, and principals–almost all local people–seem to be ignorant about the program. (They tend to downplay the honor or not understand that there are scholarships involved. They weren’t scholars themselves–most of the principals tend to be old jocks. They know sports, so they emphasize sports.) When it comes to college admissions, ACT scores are what people hear about. Only certain students who are not from around here, or plan to apply to east/west cost colleges, or are NM semifinalists tend to take the SAT. Most students don’t take it. I have also done ACT prep and I tend to hear of more students getting high scores on the ACT that don’t translate to high SAT scores rather than the reverse. The SAT is tricky and includes (I know they are changing this) the penalty for wrong answers. I find the ACT questions more straightforward/more like the questions from textbooks in school. When I take the ACT, (when doing prep, I do the tests myself) I am 100% confident that my answers are right. There is one clearly correct answer, and it is easy to see WHY it is right and the rest are wrong. SAT not so much. The SAT questions favor “clever” thinkers who notice the tricks/traps and don’t fall for them. I don’t think the schools gear their academics to either test, though. I think the ACT just happens to be more like “schoolwork”–textbook style questions that students are familiar with.</p>
<p>Perhaps there is some truth here, particularly where the ACT is now used as a high school assessment test.</p>
<p>Back when I was in high school in a place where most 4-year-college-bound students took the SAT, English teachers gave weekly lists of vocabulary words for students to learn (and be tested on). Thinking back, this may have been motivated to get students to get better SAT verbal scores, as that section was then almost entirely a vocabulary test.</p>
<p>I don’t see it. We live in ACT country now but used to live in SAT. I don’t see a real difference in getting kids prepped for testing. Yes, specific practice tests may be different but the gist is the same. Some years schools just don’t have many/any top students to qualify for NMF. Since the NMF %ages are done by state the numbers shouldn’t vary much across the state. </p>
<p>I’ve always heard that kids who do poorly on one test should try the other test. So I can see geography explaining the difference in NMF distribution in the country. If you’re in ACT-land, you probably are trained (however, subtle the influence) to do well on the ACT. </p>
<p>Having taken practice exams in both ACT and SAT (I grew up in SAT land), I will say they are very different exams. Doing well in the ACT may not translate to doing well in the PSAT. For example, I do very well in ACT English but not so well in SAT CR. There are no vocabulary words on the ACT - I really liked that. I find SAT Math very easy but there are tricks you need to spot. ACT Math is substantively more difficult with trig thrown in but if you know the material, it’s okay.</p>
<p>In ACT-land, would there be as much awareness of the PSAT and its NM scholarship implications as in SAT-land?</p>
<p>Hmm interesting. Where I live the state sanctioned tests have long overshadowed the SAT and ACT. As a consequence, I don’t think kids have been trained to work as hard or as quickly as they need to in order to do well on the big national tests. Our kids don’t do as well on the PSAT as they should. We get a lot of commended students, far fewer NMFs. (My info is anecdotal, of course.) What is interesting is we have some high SAT/ACT kids. It is like they don’t peak soon enough for the PSAT, but they do get there eventually. </p>
<p>We also have a disconnect between NMF and class rank many years. That one is troubling to me. </p>
<p>Ohio is ACT country but my kids’ HS is one that sends a lot of kids to eastern colleges, so the SAT is also taken. They are advised to try both and retake the one they do better on.</p>
<p>I’ve watched changes in the PSAT over my kids’ HS years. When S’12 was a freshman, only juniors took the PSAT, it was completely optional and NM was barely mentioned. Now, as D’15 is coming up, freshmen are encouraged to take it (she did it soph and junior years). The district recognizes MNFs (commended on up) but there aren’t as many as one might think - around here the “P” in PSAT is taken to mean “practice” and no one preps for it.</p>
<p>In her class of 200, there are 11 commended or higher this year and that is a new record, it’s usually 3-4 kids. This in a HS that sends kids to Ivies and very competitive Us and colleges around the country.</p>
<p>Adding…this year for the first time they took ACT subject sorts of tests at the end of certain core classes. If a kid scored 85 or better they had the option to use score that in place of taking a final exam. </p>
<p>I don’t know if it is regional, but some high schools are more aware of NMF than others. Our local high school doesn’t provide much, if any, college prep. The PSAT is regarded as practice, and it isn’t emphasized. At a friend’s child’s school- NMF is a big deal and the students do prepare for the PSAT.</p>
<p>I went to a school in Ohio where most people take the ACT (usually without preparing for it, because most people don’t apply to selective colleges). The PSAT was only promoted to people in honors English classes, and most of them didn’t take it because it was associated with the SAT and they didn’t know what it was for. There were maybe thirty people who took it. We had two National Merit Finalists this year, but I don’t think they ever had any before unless it was a really long time ago. </p>
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<p>Thats’ a pretty interesting observation. I agree that the state tests are generally too easy, and can be poorly designed as well.</p>
<p>Regarding the disconnect between NMF and class rank mentioned above–yes, we see that too. Ranks are usually very tight and (in our district, at least) often a function of maximizing weighted classes, avoiding non-weighted classes, taking high school classes in middle school, getting special permission to take AP classes early, etc. It is a game that a lot of extremely bright students refuse to play, or may be unaware of until it is too late. (Freshman year = too late). If a student just goes to high school with no credits from middle school, takes classes that interest him/her (even if unweighted) and gets straight A’s with a B here or there, takes 6-8 APs–that sounds good, but he/she may barely crack the top 10-20% in rank–while testing in the top 1%. To rank in the top 1-3% here takes, (imo) a level of obsession/calculation that borders on unhealthy. But the actual GPA/performance difference within the top 20% of the class is pretty small, so the apparent “disconnect” isn’t what it seems. </p>
<p>NM semifinalists are chosen state by state so the ACT states could possibly have overall lower PSAT scores as the lower number for being a semifinalist. Becoming a finalist includes more paperwork and the SAT. Actually getting a NM scholarship is partly dependent on the school chosen for that. The very top students will do well on both the ACT and the SAT- those are the ones likely to become NMF’s. Neither son nor I will ever know if we could have had UW NM scholarships as neither of us put UW as our top choice. For me it was the desire to leave town and putting another school down- I got a one time award. We did not encourage son as we had the money (thanks to a great public education in WI I was able to increase my economic status in adulthood far above that of my childhood) and it was nicer someone else got money.</p>
<p>In my day one did not study for tests- just perhaps one practice one and a single test taking. Son was forced by parents to go over practice tests and, aside from Talent Search tests in middle school, only took the ACT once, ended up (long story) taking SAT twice- with high and then perfect scores. His gpa (no weighting by his school), on the other hand, could have been higher if he had done all of the work. How many get a C in AP Chemistry the month after taking the AP exam with a 5 score???</p>
<p>My kids went to public school in SAT-land. Sophomore year practically everyone takes a “practice” PSAT administered by the college board. (doesn’t count for nm). Then the kids take the PSAT for “real” in fall of junior year. So when they take the SAT later in their junior year they’ve already had two “practice tests.” I don’t think this is unusual for our region. Therefore it doesn’t surprise me if SAT scores are higher here than in areas where the SAT isnt the standard test and kids don’t receive this sort of institutionalized prep work.</p>
<p>NMF are selected on a state-proportional basis. And that’s how some states end up w PSAT cutoffs that are 20 points lower than others.</p>
<p>Hello ,</p>
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<p>I hope the information will be helpful for you.</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Breaking news here in The Republic: our school district, a very large and very diverse, fast growing district, will now let juniors take the SAT on the district one time. Wow! Too late for my kids, but what a shift. </p>
<p>When older son was a freshman, I remember his math teacher telling parents we needed to think beyond the state sanctioned tests to the SAT. That was back when state tests were all the rage here. Much pressure on teachers and students to focus on those tests. The teacher had two very smart sons who followed dad’s advice and went on to top ranked schools. </p>
<p>Last spring the state legislature dropped the number of state tests for high school kids from something like 11 (I don’t remember; it was a lot) to five. </p>
<p>I agree about the gamesmanship necessary to be a top ranked student. Yes, the top seven percent kids, the ones who can go to UT, are the NMF/commended kids. But the top ten kids? Not always. There does seem to be some early planning about when to take APs and when to drop ECs like sports or music that take up an AP spot. It bugs me. Back when I was in school there was a strong correlation between the tippy top students and test scores. </p>