<p>edited for content</p>
<p>Take both....</p>
<p>I used to think that for people that lived in the states dominated by the SAT, it was not as smart to take the ACT, however several months on this board convinced me that this was an outdated notion. </p>
<p>So I was surprised when I came across the following passage on p. 120 of the book Admission Matters, by Springer and Franck, a very well reviewed and recently published guide to college admissions. Here's the quote:</p>
<p>"Submitting <em>just</em> the ACT to a college where a majority of students submit the SAT, however, especially if you live in a part of the country where the ACT is not that common, may cause admissions officers to wonder what happened on the SAT. Yale University's Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid Richard Shaw has said that if an applicant "is in a primarily SAT state and only submits the ACT, it would make me pause."</p>
<p>Is this portion of the book outdated in such a short time, or is it possible that despite what school websites are telling us, that there is such a bias? Is it possible that schools just want to provide as few obstacles to applying as possible?</p>
<p>I was actually thinking of having my D take a practice ACT, but not so sure now. Anyone have any thoughts on this?</p>
<p>ACT is for people in the middle portion of the United STates who are bad at math</p>
<p>LOL aznosamaboy my kids took both and said the math on the SAT was easier. I think it is personal preference. </p>
<p>Out here, Montana, most take the ACT which my sons did. They only decided to take the SAT becasue they are in the running for national merit, which requires the SAT. Several of their college options are in SAT country but that is not why they choose to take it and they will probably submit the ACT scores to most of their schools. On the conversion charts (if those are worth anything) their ACT and SAT are equivalent scores.</p>
<p>Hopefully what the schools tell you on their websites is accurate but who really knows what goes on behind the scenes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yale University's Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid Richard Shaw has said that if an applicant "is in a primarily SAT state and only submits the ACT, it would make me pause."
[/quote]
Hm - sounds as if this guy doesn't have enough to do.</p>
<p>Why would he pause, I wonder? I mean, if a kid submits a strong ACT score, would the admissions committee like to ferret out a substandard SAT score so they could roundfile the kid's application ASAP and go on to the next? Maybe at Yale and similarly elite schools - but I suspect that very few schools wouldn't accept a student's strongest score at face value, when doing so makes the school itself look better.</p>
<p>My d took both tests and her scores were equivalent. She thought the ACT was a better test. I like the idea that the ACT still provides a score choice option. For that reason, I would personally like to see the ACT kick the SAT's butt into irrelevance, but I don't think that's likely to happen.</p>
<p>There are other quotes people have from Ivies indicating something quite different. (People have quoted them on CC; I don't have them myself. One was from a former adcomm at Harvard, I believe.) I think the attitude of looking askance at the ACT is dated. Increasingly kids are investigating the tests and making choices on that basis, not historical artifact. <a href="http://www.math.com/students/kaplan/satoract.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.math.com/students/kaplan/satoract.html</a></p>
<p>There is no good reason not to go with the test one does best on, in my view, unless the college involved has expressed a preference (very rare now -- the movement is away from this attitude [I know of only Harvey Mudd of name schools that is just sticking with the SAT]). Of course, if one does equally well on both, then submit both.</p>
<p>I just find it hard to believe that one would do better at a place submitting a lower SAT score rather than a higher ACT one! </p>
<p>I guess if one is concerned, s/he can call or email prospective schools and ask. Every place I asked during the investigation stage for my two kids said the choice of test did not matter. </p>
<p>Anyway, just this past application season I remember two kids from SAT country submitting just it to Yale and getting in. There are also a number of kids using only the ACT and getting into other selective places. For instance, we live in SAT country, my daughter submitted only the ACT, and just finished her first year at Brown.</p>
<p>Richard Shaw left Yale for Stanford in 2005.</p>
<p>I honestly think that was an "off the cuff" answer to a question in an interview. Think about it for a minute - how many times does the Dean of Admissions at Yale read a single file and weigh the ACT vs the SAT vs where the kid came from???</p>
<p>To me, what might catch an eye would be someone who took the SAT 4-5 times, but then submitted one ACT score, regardless of any of the scores. I think NE admissions officers simply feel more comfortable with SAT scores, and the SAT scores are not as "bunched", you get an illusion that you are dividing kids up into smaller units - 1550-1600, 1510-1540, etc. vs 35-36, 33-34. I think that in the earliest rounds, scores are part of a formula that may contain many other data points that are important to the institution.
What happens in the 2nd or 3rd reading or in a committee where difficult decisions are being made between candidates that are basically identical, is anyone's guess. I don't think a person should decide whether or not to take a test or retake a test based on those what ifs.</p>
<p>A student who lives in SATland, whose scores are not in line with their grades, should at least try the ACT. I think, I don't know, that most people will score very close on either test - in other words, the person whose scores are out of line with their grades, usually either needs test taking training, or has specific gaps in the knowledge base. Sometimes, though, one test will click better for a given person, and sometimes, as in my child's case, the total scores may be close, but the subparts vary greatly.</p>
<p>having sat thru at least 10 presentations for selective schools in the NE, only P'ton expressed a preference for SAT. All others said it did not matter. (Based on another cc post, it appears that even P'ton has changed its policy.) From a practical matter, in is in the colleges' best interest to look at only the highest score -- it boosts THEIR numbers.</p>
<p>cangel is correct...the vast majority of kids score similiarly on both tests. For some, however, one test works better than the other, and it could have nothing to do with gaps in knowledge base.</p>
<p>
Now, now.....;)</p>
<p>My son is from the middle portion of the U.S., but he is DEFINITELY NOT "bad at math." :)</p>
<p>S took both the SAT and the ACT, but where permitted (which was every school but one), he decided to submit only the ACT. He had a very nice selection of acceptances with honors/merit awards. If we had lived in a part of the U.S. where it was more common to submit the SAT, we would likely have submitted both.</p>
<p>From what I have read/heard lately, the schools which openly say they will accept EITHER do so, with no predjudice. ~berurah</p>
<p>Re: Post #4. People "bad in math" may like the ACT math, but they will not like the ACT science, which is quantitative (graphs, analysis, quantitative inference & application, etc.). Also, the ACT science is tricky in ways not dissimilar to the "trickiness" of the SAT math. Any advantage from the first 2 sections of the ACT are cancelled by the 3rd section.</p>
<p>A couple of weeks ago on PF there was a thread started about the ACT science portion (& how the 3rd section often compromises the results of the first 2 sections).</p>
<p>Good point, blue, about the boost in "high score" numbers (for the college's "rank" and "range," etc.)</p>
<p>My D took the SAT in April followed by the ACT with writing a week later. With no preparation for the ACT, and some preparation for the SAT, she scored higher on the ACT, but more importantly came out of the ACT and said "well, that was more my kind of test. I can tell that already". And when the scores came in, she was already about 50 points higher on the ACT--and THAT was because the science section dragged down her composite (she had NO familiarity with the science section). So we had her retake the ACT in June, and she took practice tests at home in between, when she had time, which is not a lot, and we just got back her scores. Her composite is now over 200 points higher on the ACT than the SAT, and she is DONE!!! She has never been a great standardized test taker, but is an excellent student. She will be going for a BFA in Musical Theater. We are from SAT country, but all of the schools she is applying to will take the SAT or ACT with writing. We're taking them at their word that it doesn't matter to them which we submit. We have discussed it with several of the admissions people on our visits, and all said they did not care which test was used. And we have spoken to the guidance counselor at school so the SAT score will not be on her transcript (usually all scores are included on the transcript--she said she can't leave off the SAT without leaving off the ACT too, so we said fine, leave off both and we'll pay to send the ACT scores). Thanks to CC for all of this information, because even having three older kids, I didn't even know the ACT existed and certainly wouldn't have realized that it might be a better test for my MT daughter. And wouldn't have known about not reporting scores to colleges until you know what they are and wouldn't have known to ask the guidance counselor about the scores on the transcript. You guys have no idea how much help you all are!</p>
<p>thanks for that info, nydancemom. The earlier thread on the ACT science section had indicated that even some who prepped for the science did not appreciably change their science scores, but perhaps with more practice testing a student may see a change. I may encourage D#2 to try that.</p>
<p>Earlier in the same paragraph Springer and Franck states that "Some students choose to take the ACT fairly early in the junior year to see how they do compared totheir scores on the SAT that they will take in the spring. This gives them the option of concentrating of the test thatis likely to yield the highest percentile score for them (if indeed there is much of a difference at all). Some students choose to submit scores from both tests. At University of Pennsylvania, for example, about 50 percent of the applicants for the class of 2008 submitted the ACT in addition to the SAT. At Yale University, the percentage was about 15 percent. "</p>
<p>So it sounds as if this book is saying that taking both tests can help you, but at least in some places taking just the ACT could work to your disadvantage. Still, although this is a recent book (published in 2005 and referencing the incoming class of 2008) it's possible that the arrival of the new SAT, not yet on the scene yet when this was written, has had a major influence on all this. After all, nobody knew how the new SAT with its length and new material would compare to the old one either. </p>
<p>By the way, all of this obviously does not refer to those taking just the ACT in states where it is normally given. I know that there is no issue with that for the selective eastern places. So someone from the midwest submitting only the ACT to Yale or anywhere would not be prejudiced in the least.</p>
<p>Still, I don't know if i completely buy the argument that they are saying it, it must be true. I am still skeptical of believing everything I hear coming from official sources at presentations and printed on the websites as being the whole truth when it comes to admissions policies. After all, many places will also tell you that they are 100% need blind ( when policies to recruit and select a class clearly favor the wealthy). They will also say that applicants are not directly competing with the other students at their own school, ie. no cap on the number they will take from a given HS, while I've seen enough to know that this is not the case, etc. etc.</p>
<p>You all make compelling arguments, as I say, I changed my view on this when I started reading here. But I guess I would have to say that for me, reading a recent interview like this one is enough to "make me pause." ;)</p>
<p>nydancemom:</p>
<p>your D's comment reminded me of my Son's who said something similar right after the ACT: "I think I'm a SAT-kinda guy." He was right. </p>
<p>AZnos: my S has won the Math award at his competitive HS for two straight years, but bombed the math section of the ACT, while his SAT M and Math 2 were near perfect. Your post is just unsupported by any credible evidence.</p>
<p>Bluebayou's message demonstrates to me how individualized responses to the ACT vs. SAT are. My D had the opposite experience of her S. Her SAT math was 700, but her ACT math was perfect. Go figure. And as to Richard Shaw's reservations about the ACT submitted by students from SAT states, well, we come from an SAT state and D submitted ACT instead of SAT I (although Stanford did have access to the SAT I scores since the ETS sent them along with her SAT II's; I'm just assuming that since her application stated that she was submitting the ACT and did not list her SAT I's, only the ACT was considered.) and apparently Stanford didn't mind! If we had it to do over, given her stellar ACT performance, she'd take ACT first and not bother with SAT I at all.</p>
<p>Wanted to add, with respect to the Science section of the ACT, D was able to raise her score I think 7 points with three weeks of fairly intensive prep. The issue was not lack of knowledge of science, but problems with her test-taking techniques and lack of familiarity with the kinds of problems posed in the very short time frame. If the issue is technique-based and not knowledge-based, our experience would show that the score can be raised substantially.</p>
<p>A more important point, which I wish our AdRep posters would address: the Concordance table used by many (most?) colleges to normalize ACT-SAT scores. It compared scores of kids taking both tests in the same year, and has been validated by the stat gurus at UCal and UTex.</p>
<p>I raise this to point out that a 95% ACT is not the same as a 95% SAT. For example, a composite ACT 29 is the 95th percentile according to ACT. But, using the concordance table, a ACT 29 converts into a SAT ~1300, which, according to CB, is only the 86th percentile of students - the 95th % is ~400 (by interpolating both tests).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/05/pdf/t4.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.act.org/news/data/05/pdf/t4.pdf</a></p>
<p>"the 95th % is ~400"</p>
<p>BB, that would make many high schoolers happy. :)</p>
<p>On a serious note, I believe that the growing acceptance of the ACT in SAT Land*** -without prejudice- has helped make the debate a moot point. While it remains obvious that the SAT is the "standard" on both coasts, students have done well by submitting ACT scores only. Parents and students should prepare for both tests and ascertain which one provides a best fit -here we go again with best fit! </p>
<p>The ACT and SAT have grown to be almost interchangeable, but some subtle differences still exist. The "hard" reasoning part of the SAT Math tends to hide into the ill-named Science section of the ACT. Speed plays a larger role in the ACT, and there are no penalties for wild guessing. However, knowing those differences is not even crucial; let the student take both and see which ones he or she likes better. On an individual basis, I still do NOT like the ACT, which I find annoyingly structured, and a lot more subjective than the SAT. It is obvious that the ACT does not spend as much than the TCB/ETS combo in preparing and deconstructing the tests. But that is again mostly irrelevant to Susie and Jack! Let the results guide the choices.</p>
<p>As far as strategic use of the ACT, unless the colleges get a LOT smarter for the 2007-2008 season, I expect some glaring loopholes to remain open. Students, and especially internationals, might still find strange admission policies at schools that accept the ACT in lieu of SAT Subject Tests. Scrutinizing the admission policies of all targeted schools for idiosyncracies is ... time well spent.</p>
<p>As a last note, the book written by Sally Springer is still the best in its genre, and one of my favorites for its combination of depth and simplicity.</p>
<p>*** How strange that SAT Land is mostly composed of ... Blue States.</p>