SAT Scores--Is Less More?

Colleges and Universities A-Z California Institute of Technology
61

<p>EllenF:</p>

<p>I attend a public school called the Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics, and Humanities. Although we had to apply for admission just to get in, it IS considered a public school and there are no fees whatsoever to attend.</p>

<p>I doubt that we covered 50% last year, however. The professor had a heart attack and died in the middle of the year, and we thus had a lot of problems and a lot of people left the class altogether. I did, however, hear that 75% of the people who took the exam at my school (about 20) got 5s. The number of exam-takers is usually much higher than 20, though. It was just an odd year.</p>

<p>And this year is a rebuilding year for us, since last year we had another physics teacher leave, and so we have a new set of faculty... so I wouldn't expect much out of our school for AP Physics Exams in the next couple of years.</p>

62

<p><a href="Ben%20wrote:">quote</a> The SAT generally detects whether one has either
(i) innate skill at detecting multiple choice tricks, or
(ii) the persistence to sit down on your chair and learn this (simple, tedious) skill.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It is selling the SAT short to shrug it off as "multiple choice tricks". People who hardly have seen the multiple choice format --- people schooled outside the USA, for instance --- also take it and get meaningful results.</p>

<p>The relatively minor effects of examsmanship on the SAT are much less, in my opinion, than the straightforward large effects of abilities such as:
-speed and accuracy in solving a variety of math problems;
-recognizing ways in which unorthodox problems can reduce to familiar ones
-having a large vocabulary and facility with English
-ability to read rapidly with good absorption of the information.</p>

<p>Familiarity with the format of the SAT can be acquired through exposure and practice now that books of old exams are available. Beyond that, the skills that make a difference are pretty much what the SAT purports to measure (and with no pretense of perfection, by the way).</p>

63

<p>As of Oct 1, 2006, in your school 17 students were taking Calc BC and 14 taking Physics C. However, I'm not sure how your school is set up. Perhaps more students take the AP exams than take the courses. </p>

<p>In 2006 compared to 2005, in Indiana the number of 5s went up 50% on Physics E&M and 24% on Physics Mech. Those students must have come from other schools if the number of students in your school taking the exam went down. That means the quality of education for outstanding students is improving around the state, which is good news.</p>

<p>(It's amazing how much information is available on-line!)</p>

64

<p>EllenF: </p>

<p>Our school is set up differently than most schools. First of all, I'd estimate that there are about 40-50 students in BC as of right now. Why? We don't have the system where you take Calc AB one year and immediately jump into BC the next. We do it the way it should be done. If a junior student takes Calculus AB, then he must take a math elective class 1st semester of his senior year, but has the option of taking Calculus BC second semester of his senior year. The people taking BC first semester are only people who have jumped straight from Pre-Calculus into BC. This system is the most logical, as AP Calculus was designed to have AB representing a half-year of an actual college calculus course and BC representing the full year of an actual college calculus course. In other words, 1 semester of BC == 2 semesters of AB.</p>

<p>Your latter statistics are probably why my school did take 50% of the 5s until most recently. Indiana is one of the worst states in the nation for education, but our government is trying to improve this by establishing more AP availability in the 'lesser' school systems. In fact, in 2-3 years, the state of Indiana is going to implement a system where you cannot get your graduation diploma unless you take and pass at least 2 AP courses. (I think it's a bad idea, personally.) Our school only has 300 people and it's only logical that we shouldn't even approach taking on 50% of the 5s in the state... considering that there are probably at least 100,000 high schoolers in Indiana.</p>

<p>It is true that in some cases, students take the AP Exams without taking the courses. I was considering taking the AP Chemistry and the AP Japanese Exams this year without taking the respective courses, but decided against it because I didn't want to burden my parents with the cost. There are plenty of people here who do have the money to do such things, however.</p>

<p>It's rather odd how you found that information online, though. o_O You seem to be rather skeptical of my school, though. I don't care what you think, personally, but here's something to think on: Caltech hasn't rejected a person attending my school in more than 10 years. (But from the way I'm seeing things, I may be the first.) I'm not really into the whole school pride thing, anyway, although I may have given off the feeling that I was. I'm just giving off meaningless statistics that really served no purpose but to justify my initial argument, which I have given up defending.</p>

65

<p>Unless something changed since I took AP tests 3 years ago the state of Indiana reimburses you for math, english language, and Science (including chemistry) AP tests.</p>

66

<p>Only if you're taking the respective AP course. Otherwise, they won't pay for it. And it's only math and science -- no english.</p>

67

<p>"I don't care what you think, personally, but here's something to think on: Caltech hasn't rejected a person attending my school in more than 10 years"</p>

<p>That has the familiar ring of an "urban legend," (just as your "I won't believe [your obvious statement] unless you post a link" earlier had the familiar ring of a petulant internet troll) but even taking it at face value, this is probably due to a very small number of people applying combined with self-selection. Caltech rejects any number of people from "better" schools (e.g. TJ) every year.</p>

<p>If you do end up going to Caltech I would advise you to do something about the ego, though, or it is not likely to be a happy place for you.</p>

68

<p>Actually, 7 people. No urban legend, we have statistics. I'm sure Caltech does as well. It was defense anyway -- not bragging. Everyone here apparently thinks I'm a liar about what I've said, so I think I should be able to defend myself and my school.</p>

<p>And Joe, I've done nothing but try to take the tone a bit (by explaining myself in a most reasonable manner), even though everyone continues to question me, although most has been reasonable conversation. But everything I say makes you criticize me in some way, so I'm going to walk away from everything you say -- you're just being belligerent.</p>

<p>Maybe you're offended because a high schooler won't give in to your "obvious statements" about SAT-AP correlation -- after all, you're a grad student and you should be respected, right? Well, I have a right to think for myself and not be heavily influenced by people like you who have to be right about everything and criticize anyone who thinks differently. My argument may not have been presented in a most logical fashion, but that's no reason for the flood of hateful comments you've been writing.</p>

69

<p><a href="just%20as%20your%20%22I%20won't%20believe%20%5Byour%20obvious%20statement%5D%20unless%20you%20post%20a%20link%22%20earlier%20had%20the%20familiar%20ring%20of%20a%20petulant%20internet%20troll">quote</a>

[/quote]

[quote]
after all, you're a grad student and you should be respected, right? Well, I have a right to think for myself and not be heavily influenced by people like you who have to be right about everything and criticize anyone who thinks differently.

[/quote]

Do we really need this?</p>

70

<p>Who even brought up your school? I think it was you, complaining, essentially, that students from such a special place (though 7 in 10 years doesn't seem so remarkable to me for a math/science magnet) shouldn't be expected to take multiple-choice tests. Everyone kind of gently humored you for awhile on that rather arrogant point (even though it is ridiculous--we didn't have any multiple choice tests at my high school either, and no one whined this much about taking the SAT), but enough is enough. </p>

<p>You asked a question and didn't like the answer you got (from <em>every single other poster</em>, not just me); it's as simple as that. It has nothing to do with anyone being a grad student. It may well have something to do with "having to be right about everything" (e.g. if one's SAT score isn't as high as one would like, then the SAT itself must not be very important, or must be flawed in some way!).</p>

<p>P.S. Pointing out that you're wrong is not "hateful". I'm doing it more forcefully because gently didn't work.</p>

71

<p>"Who even brought up your school? I think it was you, complaining, essentially, that students from such a special place (though 7 in 10 years doesn't seem so remarkable to me for a math/science magnet) shouldn't be expected to take multiple-choice tests. Everyone kind of gently humored you for awhile on that rather arrogant point (even though it is ridiculous--we didn't have any multiple choice tests at my high school either, and no one whined this much about taking the SAT), but enough is enough."</p>

<p>"You asked a question and didn't like the answer you got (from <em>every single other poster</em>, not just me); it's as simple as that."</p>

<p>I saw suspicious results. I reported them. I questioned the system. Am I not allowed to do this? Caltech must be rather dull if everyone is as docile and convinced of the 'common argument' as you are. It really doesn't matter how many people here are on your side, it doesn't justify your argument. If it were true that the number of people on one side of an argument justified a result, then the human race would still believe that the Earth was the center of the universe.</p>

<p>"It may well have something to do with "having to be right about everything" (e.g. if one's SAT score isn't as high as one would like, then the SAT itself must not be very important, or must be flawed in some way!)."</p>

<p>You're making it sound like my entire argument was based on me and me only, and that I'm up against the world in this argument. If you knew anything of the issue, however, you'd know that I'm not the only one fighting against the SAT. MIT, UChicago, and hoardes of smaller schools have taken steps against the SAT, and CollegeBoard is being criticized everywhere. I even saw an article the other day about how the ACT could overcome the SAT in popularity, and I wouldn't be surprised at this at all. (Although I don't think the ACT is very accurate either, this shows the skepticism of the country against the CollegeBoard.)</p>

<p>"P.S. Pointing out that you're wrong is not "hateful". I'm doing it more forcefully because gently didn't work."</p>

<p>You're not going to convince anyone halfway-intelligent that what you're saying is true by being "more forceful" or bringing up name-calling. Plus, you started being forceful AFTER the main argument occurred, elucidating your desire to argue.</p>

<p>It makes me very scared that you would be on the admissions team for Caltech, although it does make me feel a bit better if I get rejected -- I don't need the approval of people like you. It may be about time to look at some other colleges.</p>

72

<p>Could you please cite your statement, "MIT, UChicago, and hoardes of smaller schools have taken steps against the SAT"?</p>

73

<p>"I even saw an article the other day about how the ACT could overcome the SAT in popularity, and I wouldn't be surprised at this at all."</p>

<p>Let me take a wild guess: your ACT score was better than your SAT score. Do I win a prize?</p>

74

<p>Sure thing.</p>

<p>First off, MIT. I'll give you a quote directly from the MIT Blogs so you won't be so skeptical of my statements.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/helping_your_parents_through_this_process/marilee_jones_in_the_news_1.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/helping_your_parents_through_this_process/marilee_jones_in_the_news_1.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you'll read the paragraph that's 4th from the bottom, it says:</p>

<p>"Jones hopes someday to see MIT make standardized tests like the SAT optional for applicants. A growing number of colleges have stopped requiring standardized tests, though none of MIT's reputation, and for MIT to do so would send shock waves through the field."</p>

<p>If you didn't know, Marilee Jones is MIT's Director of Admissions. Jones is probably the biggest critic of the SAT in the entire academic world... which is big, since it's coming from MIT.</p>

<hr>

<p>UChicago:</p>

<p>The first evidence is straight from the CollegeBoard website. </p>

<p><a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1713&profileId=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1713&profileId=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Down at the bottom of the page, UChicago's criteria for admission is given. Whereas Caltech has standardized test scores as "Very Important" and MIT has it as "Important", UChicago has standardized test scores under "Considered".</p>

<p>Secondly, I purposely tested UChicago's admissions criteria when, instead of sending in my ACT results, which definitely would've got me in, I sent them my SAT results (670 math, 560 english). I got in EA, so apparently they're not lying when they say they don't care about SAT scores.</p>

<p>Oddly enough, I can't find any more on UChicago's stance on SATs at the moment. But when they send you stuff in the mail, they always say that they don't care about SAT scores. I also visited UChicago last year on a college visit, and our guides specifically told us that they couldn't care less about SAT scores.</p>

<p>I'll try to look for some links later, though, that will clarify UChicago's position on this issue.</p>

<hr>

<p>As for the hoardes of small colleges part... I won't go into detail since covering each college would be rather difficult. Instead, I'll just make the statement that the many colleges that have stopped requiring the SAT for admissions is evidence enough.</p>

<p>EDIT: After rereading my post, I found that evidence of the 'many colleges stopping this requirement' is actually given in the quote I gave from the MIT blogs. That is," A growing number of colleges have stopped requiring standardized tests, though none of MIT's reputation".</p>

<hr>

<p>EDIT #2:</p>

<p>"Let me take a wild guess: your ACT score was better than your SAT score."</p>

<p>Yeah, it was. I thought I said that earlier. I'm not pro-ACT, though, as I said earlier, as I believe both ACT and SAT are stupid standardized tests. I think the reason most people are tending to take the ACT nowadays than the SAT, though, is not because of the inaccuracy of the SAT, but because of the scandals going around CollegeBoard.</p>

75

<p>"You're not going to convince anyone halfway-intelligent that what you're saying is true by being "more forceful" or bringing up name-calling. Plus, you started being forceful AFTER the main argument occurred, elucidating your desire to argue.</p>

<p>It makes me very scared that you would be on the admissions team for Caltech, although it does make me feel a bit better if I get rejected -- I don't need the approval of people like you. It may be about time to look at some other colleges."</p>

<p>And yet strangely, everyone else on this thread--presumably quite intelligent--seems to agree with me.</p>

<p>"People like me," eh? People who acknowledge the value of one of the few truly objective and universal standards in college admissions? Does Ben scare you? He's told you the same thing.</p>

76

<p>"objective and universal standards in college admissions"?</p>

<p>Like I just said, colleges have begun to have less respect for this "objective" and "universal" standard. Why don't you respond to what I just said concerning MIT and UChicago?</p>

<p>"Does Ben scare you? He's told you the same thing."</p>

<p>Ben's opinion is a lot less adamant than yours. Plus, it's his opinion, and I respect it. But that certainly doesn't mean he's right.</p>

<p>"People like me," eh? People who acknowledge the value of one of the few truly objective and universal standards in college admissions?"</p>

<p>Oh, I wasn't referring to your stance on SATs, although the extent of your adamance scares me. I was more referring to the fact that you argued by force rather than pure intelligence.</p>

77

<p>Chicago (and the handful of liberal arts colleges that don't require the SAT or ACT) has always done things its own way. MIT's desire to move away from the SAT is in many ways tied up with that institution's affirmative action policies and is not a principled stand against the SAT per se. In fact, in this case it is the very objectivity and universality that the school chafes under.</p>

<p>The entire Ivy League, Stanford, Caltech, and every top public of which I'm aware views the SAT as quite significant. MIT actally does, too; the admissions director has said that she personally would "like to" change that, but also acknowledges that they haven't.</p>

<p>As for "adamance" I'd say that I actually undervalue the SAT versus most other people involved in college admissions--so you must find a good portion of adcoms across the country quite terrifying! I know that there were certainly many things that impressed me more when I would read an application than a perfect SAT I score (NB: they aren't long lists of AP tests either, especially from a magnet school).</p>

<p>However, I am quite "adamant" that the test is not as worthless as you seem to believe, or even close. I assure you that everyone else on this thread also agrees with that (which they have expressed, and in some cases to a further degree than I have--but with more subtlety), but they are being less blunt than I am about it.</p>

<p>"Arguing by force"?! For goodness sake, that's laughable. This is an internet message board! I'm not twisting your arm; I'm typing on a keyboard. Do you think that your posts citing a 5-person "study" that shows a trend exactly the opposite of the demonstrable larger trend are arguing with "pure intelligence"?</p>

78

<p>"The entire Ivy League, Stanford, Caltech, and every top public of which I'm aware views the SAT as quite significant."</p>

<p>I'd argue against that statement for Stanford. Last year, the mid-50 percentile for ACT was 26 - 31, which would put me above the 75th percentile, despite the fact that I suck at standardized tests. But yeah, most schools do find the SAT significant.</p>

<p>"As for "adamance" I'd say that I actually undervalue the SAT versus most other people involved in college admissions--so you must find a good portion of adcoms across the country quite terrifying! I know that there were certainly many things that impressed me more when I would read an application than a perfect SAT I score (NB: they aren't long lists of AP tests either, especially from a magnet school)."</p>

<p>Yes, that is quite terrifying, actually. Tell me, though, what would impress you more than a perfect score, especially for a magnet school? Independent study? Personality? (By the way, I don't really think AP tests are that impressive, personally. They're just as hackable as the SAT or ACT. It just takes a lot more effort.)</p>

<p>""Arguing by force"?! For goodness sake, that's laughable. This is an internet message board! I'm not twisting your arm; I'm typing on a keyboard. Do you think that your posts citing a 5-person "study" that shows a trend exactly the opposite of the demonstrable larger trend are arguing with "pure intelligence"?"</p>

<p>I had to type the entirety of my last message in about 2 minutes due to the fact that class was starting, so it appears my message was nonsense. -_-</p>

79

<p>Hi, phuriku, </p>

<p>This has been an interesting diversion from the question I raised when opening this thread. Ben, with his extensive experience in actual admission committee work, assures us that an applicant can fearlessly submit a second SAT I score if for some reason the applicant thinks that the first SAT I score is not high enough. That is so low-risk, based on what Ben said, that I conclude it might as well be considered nil risk, when balanced against all the other issues that an admission committee considers when evaluating candidates for admission. </p>

<p>I think Ben made a good point, too, regarding your concern about how SAT I scores are used for college admission. The SAT I is a task with particular "rules of the game" that don't correspond exactly to how a working scientist or mathematician does his day-by-day work, and yet scoring high on the SAT I is a learnable skill. A high schooler who is smart enough to thrive at Caltech is smart enough to learn how to turn out an SAT I score within the range of scores found among admitted students each year. An applicant who submits solely SAT I scores that are below the level of any student recently admitted to Caltech has a very meager chance of admission, and that doesn't bother me. There are hundreds of colleges in the United States that offer major programs in math, science, or engineering. </p>

<p>If you are scoring above the 75th percentile of admitted students at Stanford on the ACT, I would suggest that you don't "suck at standardized tests," but rather do reasonably well on standardized tests, and perhaps thrive better at some other school-related task. Of course when you apply to any college you will want to emphasize your most outstanding achievements. </p>

<p>Peak scores on either of the major brands of standardized test are rather rare. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/06/pdf/National2006.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.act.org/news/data/06/pdf/National2006.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>(see table 2.1) </p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/SATPercentileRanksCompositeCR_M_W.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/SATPercentileRanksCompositeCR_M_W.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>The very most selective colleges have sufficiently many applicants with high SAT I or ACT scores that they can afford to be quite selective on the basis of those scores. But each of those colleges will occasionally pass over an applicant with peak scores on those tests to admit applicants with slightly lower scores who have other desirable characteristics. And returning to the point I asked about in the original post, if an applicant takes an entrance test once and doesn't gain the score he thinks represents his abilities fairly, he is welcome to take the test again up until the application deadline. </p>

<p>I'm curious about the study oldolddad found about AP and PSAT correlations, and wish it wasn't on backorder just now. I think Joe has made some very good points about how to relate your personal experience as a high school student to the broader issue of how admission tests are used in college admission.</p>

80

<p>"A high schooler who is smart enough to thrive at Caltech is smart enough to learn how to turn out an SAT I score within the range of scores found among admitted students each year. An applicant who submits solely SAT I scores that are below the level of any student recently admitted to Caltech has a very meager chance of admission, and that doesn't bother me. There are hundreds of colleges in the United States that offer major programs in math, science, or engineering."</p>

<p>"The very most selective colleges have sufficiently many applicants with high SAT I or ACT scores that they can afford to be quite selective on the basis of those scores. But each of those colleges will occasionally pass over an applicant with peak scores on those tests to admit applicants with slightly lower scores who have other desirable characteristics."</p>

<p>Excellent points, tokenadult. And to continue on a little bit further and also answer phuriku's question, some of those things are things like participation in one of the international Olympiads, excellent research experience (at Caltech especially that will be received very well), and anything that shows the student's desire in general to push the envelope (or at least take full advantage) on the opportunities his or her high school offered in an exceptional way (which is why a long list of AP classes from a magnet school isn't necessarily more impressive than the kid with only 2 APs, and maybe diffeq at the local community college, whose high school only offered 2 APs in the first place).</p>

<p>It should be said, as tokenadult alluded above, that most students who have those attributes also have good SAT scores, or at least scores "in the range". Caltech's average is somewhere above 1500. In that context, a 1400 is one thing; a 1200 is another.</p>