SAT Scores--Is Less More?

<p>"I think Ben made a good point, too, regarding your concern about how SAT I scores are used for college admission. The SAT I is a task with particular "rules of the game" that don't correspond exactly to how a working scientist or mathematician does his day-by-day work, and yet scoring high on the SAT I is a learnable skill. A high schooler who is smart enough to thrive at Caltech is smart enough to learn how to turn out an SAT I score within the range of scores found among admitted students each year."</p>

<p>I definitely agree with you there. Getting a high score on the SAT is easy, but I think the problem is that some very qualified students just don't want to really take the time to study for it (since I don't see how studying for the SATs would do a student any good in expanding the mind), and I don't think they should be held accountable for it.</p>

<p>One could say 'Well, hey, it's a silly test, and it may be a waste of time, but just do it!' For most public schools, I'd agree, since there's not much else to judge an applicant by. But with schools like Caltech, college admissions comittees can see essays, extracurricular activities, grades, AP scores, research, etc., and I don't see why SAT scores hold such importance when there are just so many other factors that to me would be more sensible to judge by.</p>

<p>(And tokenadult, as for my ACT score... I may have scored above the 75th percentile for Stanford, but I scored under the 25th percentile for Caltech. In fact, Caltech is the only school in the country where I'm not in the mid-50 range, which really seems to make apparent the fact that it's very strict on standardized tests. Note that the 25th percentile marker for Caltech is in the upper 99th percentile. Isn't that a bit harsh?)</p>

<p>I think it's factually correct that Caltech's admitted class is about as highly selected as to standardized test scores as they come, which is why (besides Ben's known openness about the admission process) I came here to ask my question that opened the thread. Caltech is strict about standardized test scores, but it isn't crazy about them. You get a second chance--and even a third chance--if your first score was dissatisfactory, and willingness to do the learning that you acknowledge is within the capacity of anyone who would thrive at Caltech is perhaps an implicit test of "passion" for studying there. Students who score at the low end of Caltech's admitted class can find, if they are not admitted to Caltech, that there are other opportunities to study math or science in vibrant intellectual communities on other campuses.</p>

<p>"Getting a high score on the SAT is easy"</p>

<p>Few students manage it.</p>

<p>"I think the problem is that some very qualified students just don't want to really take the time to study for it"</p>

<p>There are plenty of people at Caltech who DIDN'T study for it at all. I didn't want to take the time to study either, so I just did the one practice test that comes with your registration form... but if my first score hadn't been satisfactory of course I would've retaken!</p>

<p>"In fact, Caltech is the only school in the country where I'm not in the mid-50 range, which really seems to make apparent the fact that it's very strict on standardized tests."</p>

<p>I'd say it has more to do with Caltech's extremely small class size than "strictness". There are just fewer spots for marginal applicants, and as the saying (hyperbolically, of course) goes: "admissions doesn't make mistakes"--it is not the kind of school where they are looking to "take a chance" on students who might end up being miserable.</p>

<p>Is "taking a chance" the difference between admitting a student in the 99th percentile and admitting a student in the 97th percentile? A friend of mine recently suggested, when I showed her Caltech's average scores, that "when they are divided between two applicants, they just take the one with the higher test score".</p>

<p>From the attitudes displayed here, I'd say that that would be close to accurate... although I hardly find a difference between scoring in the 97th percentile (or even the 95th percentile) and scoring in the 99th percentile. It's just too close to tell. Making a stupid mistake from just not thinking could screw up your chances at Caltech, kind of like how I got all the trig and advanced algebra questions on the ACT right, but I missed a pre-algebra question. Stupid mistakes happen and re-taking the test just because of 1 or 2 small mistakes I see as rather silly. (And the difference between a 34 Math ACT and a 36 Math ACT could mean the world for an application.)</p>

<p>Oh, and as for the comment about retaking a test... some people just can't afford it. I live with my mom who makes $17,000/year. My other friends were able to retake the SAT, but I wasn't because I just didn't have the money that they're charging nowadays for it. (My school doesn't allow one to have a job, so that's out too.)</p>

<p>Ben has previously written that the admission committee takes care to take all of a student's life circumstances into account when deciding on applications for admission. </p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Of course. Colleges are happy to admit students who learn and improve over time. </p>

<p>If a student has limited means, and can only take the SAT I once, that should be mentioned in the admission application. In all cases, strong scores on tests are helpful, but other elements of the admission process count for a lot too.</p>

<p>phuriku,</p>

<p>In any endeavor in your life, there will be a certain amount of "busy work" required. It will be distasteful, it will be beside the point, and it won't further your understanding of the subject matter, but it will be required none the less. Applying for grants for research is a perfect example. Taking 5 terms of physics when you're a biology major in order to get a Caltech degree is another. Doing well on a standardized test in order to get into college falls into this group. If you refuse to spend time learning skills that aren't immediately useful to you, you will not do well either at Caltech or in the scientific community.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I definitely agree with you there. Getting a high score on the SAT is easy, but I think the problem is that some very qualified students just don't want to really take the time to study for it (since I don't see how studying for the SATs would do a student any good in expanding the mind), and I don't think they should be held accountable for it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that it's unfair for a qualified student who is unaware of the economical resources available for SAT prep (books) to have the fact used against him/her. However, I can't sympathize with someone who <em>knows</em> that it's possible to study for the SAT and dramatically improve scores, and then doesn't bother to do so, and then complains about it. After all, I did study for the SAT, and went from being <em>very</em> sub-Caltech (below 650) to within the 25th-75th percentile in math by taking the time to learn the test. Why should I be put on equal footing with someone else who knew that their SAT scores weren't representative of their abilities yet never took the trouble to prove it?</p>

<p>Anyway, on the whole I'd say that SAT prep will broaden one's mind far more than reading CC.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh, and as for the comment about retaking a test... some people just can't afford it. I live with my mom who makes $17,000/year. My other friends were able to retake the SAT, but I wasn't because I just didn't have the money that they're charging nowadays for it. (My school doesn't allow one to have a job, so that's out too.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We aren't much better off financially, but I've been able to take the SAT I twice (not to mention subject tests), because the test dates were spread over a year.</p>

<p>Also, if you're poor the AP-SAT correlation could be a GOOD thing. A single AP test is twice as expensive as the <em>entire</em> SAT. Scoring 2400 on the SAT won't show that you're an expert in (blank), but the correlation allows someone who can't afford to take the AP (blank) test to show that he/she could learn it if he/she wanted to (the desire to learn (blank) can be conveyed in your essays).</p>

<p>CollegeBoard offers fee waivers to low income students for both the SAT and SAT subject tests. Details are available on the CollegeBoard website. Your school counselor should also be able to give you information about these waivers.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I definitely agree with you there. Getting a high score on the SAT is easy, but I think the problem is that some very qualified students just don't want to really take the time to study for it (since I don't see how studying for the SATs would do a student any good in expanding the mind), and I don't think they should be held accountable for it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I often don't really want to take the time to do my homework or study for my tests, but that's not a particularly good reason for me not to be held accountable for those things.</p>

<p>Joe, I agree with you and disagree with phuriku about almost everything in this thread, but you make Caltech look bad by being needlessly mean and sarcastic. Being right usually doesn't release you from the gentleman's obligation to be at least a little civil.</p>

<p>You're right of course, Ben. Nothing frustrates me more than arrogance, though (which is part of why I really liked Caltech, of course; just about everyone is VERY humble--the most brilliant guy I knew, name starts with Po, was probably the MOST humble)... and the whole "I shouldn't have to do X, Y, or Z that everyone else does because I just can't be bothered and my high school is too special anyway" attitude really gets under my skin. Like nothing else. I'll deal with an arrogant prof here or there (I quite liked David Baltimore and I know some people thought he was that), but... high school students?</p>

<p>... but you're a big guy for making that last post, Joe. Now let us put this nonsense to rest.</p>

<p>Phuriku, I hope you get into Caltech and come so that your mind can be occupied by more important things than the content of this thread :).</p>

<p>Phuriku, I hope you get into Caltech as well. I think you will like Caltech better than other schools.</p>

<p>Ben Golub and inverse:</p>

<p>Thanks for your comments and your support. I get my decision tomorrow (I hope; otherwise, I'm going to go down to the post office and give them a piece of my mind). I'd really like to put all this behind me, although I think it's important to debate things such as this. I got into a similar discussion a while back about affirmative action at MIT, and when such large issues are at stake determining the futures of so many people, it really is a shame to just 'let things go'. Even if I am accepted, which I doubt I will be (and I'll blame it on standardized test scores if I'm not :D), I'll still occasionally come back here and lightly debate some of these issues, if they ever arise again. Although holding such a strong position on these issues is hardly necessary, keeping these issues in the back of one's mind can't hurt anyone, and I think it's quite important that everyone does.</p>

<p>Joe:</p>

<p>Hopefully, no bad feelings. I'm coming to Michigan to hug you if I get in. (I'm not joking.)</p>

<p>I also came from a selective science/math magnet and scored low on the SAT last year (bottom quartile by Caltech's standards). I got in last year. I don't think Caltech cares as much about the SAT as you think... Well, certainly not the reading and writing.</p>

<p>phurika, you are mistaken about Indiana requiring students to take 2 ap classes to get a diploma. (post #64)</p>

<p>From the website:
<a href="http://www.doe.state.in.us/core40/pdf/diploma_requirements.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.doe.state.in.us/core40/pdf/diploma_requirements.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Complete <em>one</em> of the following:</p>

<ul>
<li>Two Advanced Placement courses and corresponding AP exams</li>
<li>Academic, transferable dual high school/college courses resulting in 6 college credits</li>
<li>One Advanced Placement course and corresponding AP exam and academic transferable dual high school/college course(s) resulting in 3 college credits</li>
<li>Score 1200 or higher combined SAT math and verbal</li>
<li>Score a 26 composite ACT</li>
<li>An International Baccalaureate Diploma"</li>
</ul>

<p>Also, the state will pay for any math or science ap test you want to take, regardless of whether you took the corresponding class or not.</p>

<p>Thats only for Academic Honors- Its not useful for anything except scolarships to in-state schools.</p>

<p>momofchris:</p>

<p>I suppose you're right. But it still doesn't make sense at all. The people not taking college courses and not scoring high on SATs and ACTs are the people more likely to not succeed in the AP courses... unless, of course, the AP course's standards are dragged down, thus hurting the people who seriously want to learn.</p>

<p>Also, I heard that the policy won't be implemented for a couple of years anyhow, and that's the policy that's in place now, so it may change soon. Your link is also for Core 40, and not the general high school diploma.</p>

<p>And can you back up that the state will pay for APs regardless if you're taking the exam or not? I'd like to take a few exams this year and I have until the end of tomorrow to sign up. My school specifically told me that you have to take the corresponding exam, but they may be wrong... I've looked around the Internet and can't find anything.</p>

<p>Edit:</p>

<p>Nope, you're wrong.</p>

<p><a href="http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:II58hsUaZUMJ:ceep.indiana.edu/projects/PDF/PB_V4N2_Winter_2006_Dual_Credit.pdf+state+of+indiana+ap+test+pay&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=64&gl=us%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:II58hsUaZUMJ:ceep.indiana.edu/projects/PDF/PB_V4N2_Winter_2006_Dual_Credit.pdf+state+of+indiana+ap+test+pay&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=64&gl=us&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"School corporations in Indiana are required by
state law to provide AP courses in mathemat-
ics, science, and English language and litera-
ture for qualified high school students.
Additionally, the law authorizes the subsidiz-
ing of AP exam costs by the state of Indiana
for the Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Calculus,
Environmental Science, and Statistics tests
(the AP English Language and Composition
exam is not covered by the reimbursement
program).
62
Because the intent of the state
funding of AP exam fees is to encourage stu-
dents to enroll in challenging courses, students
are eligible for the exam funding only if they
have taken the corresponding College Board
AP course."</p>

<p>Ah, that is for academic honors, isn't it?</p>

<p>I saw the extra requirement of 2 AP courses for REGULAR graduation in an article at cnn.com. But it seems to have disappeared off of the face of the internet. :/ I remember that it was supposed to be implemented before my sister is to graduate, and I think it was supposed to be for 2 years from now. I could be wrong, though... And seeing as how I can't find the original cnn article, maybe they were mistaken and took it down? I honestly don't know, but I don't think I can back up my claims at the moment. If anyone finds it totally relevant and important, I can call my home high school and find out.</p>

<p>I talked about this with the principal at my (ex)high school today- he said it was only proposed for academic honors.</p>

<p>Not in Michigan unfortunately. But good luck anyhow!</p>